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marc801


Sep 27, 2011, 4:50 PM
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Re: [jktinst] When to place the Jesus nut [In reply to]
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jktinst wrote:
This is still pretty new to me but, based on past experience, it's the belay ledge condition that's going to be the most restrictive. Running out of rope or gear isn't all that frequent but belay positions will quite often be unsuitable to climb above at the end of the previous pitch with no spotter and with a lot of stretch in the rope.
You have virtually no multi-pitch trad experience at all, do you? There are numerous climbs where you have no choice but to climb above unsuitable belay positions and ledges. If we include big wall aid climbs, the entire meaning of new wave A3+ and up is that you're probably going to hit stuff if something blows.


jktinst


Sep 27, 2011, 8:22 PM
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Re: [marc801] When to place the Jesus nut [In reply to]
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jacques wrote:
I think that it is important some time. A good belay ledge with a run out after (fall factor two) is not always a good solution. better to have an hanging belay with less risk than a good one with scary pro.
Agreed. And Largo's example's a case in point. Although every situation is going to be different. Dropping your belayer down below a wide belay platform isn't an option. You'll either have to chance that runout with nothing but a spotter until you can place a first pro or bail.

marc801 wrote:
You have virtually no multi-pitch trad experience at all, do you? There are numerous climbs where you have no choice but to climb above unsuitable belay positions and ledges. If we include big wall aid climbs, the entire meaning of new wave A3+ and up is that you're probably going to hit stuff if something blows.
I have no big wall aid experience but I was seconding trad multipitch from my second climbing outing on and leading them (easy ones) by about the 6th outing. This was in the south of France, back in the early 80's. EBs were still the standard in climbing shoes. Climbing gyms were in the realm of science-fiction. The French bolting craze had not yet swept over our cliffs. Friends were just starting to appear and were way too expensive for our budget so we used only passive pros.

As I've said before, I stopped and re-started trad leading on multiple occasions. I never achieved pinnacles of strength, endurance and technical ability but I do love it and keep finding my way back to it.

When I speak of "this being new to me", I refer to putting in practice the various options discussed further up in this thread to try and minimize the possibility of the leader falling directly on the belay or the impact of such a fall. Feel free to read it if you want to know what this is about.

(This post was edited by jktinst on Sep 27, 2011, 8:55 PM)


marc801


Sep 28, 2011, 9:27 AM
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Re: [jktinst] When to place the Jesus nut [In reply to]
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jktinst wrote:
I have no big wall aid experience but I was seconding trad multipitch from my second climbing outing on and leading them (easy ones) by about the 6th outing. This was in the south of France, back in the early 80's. EBs were still the standard in climbing shoes. Climbing gyms were in the realm of science-fiction. The French bolting craze had not yet swept over our cliffs. Friends were just starting to appear and were way too expensive for our budget so we used only passive pros.

As I've said before, I stopped and re-started trad leading on multiple occasions. I never achieved pinnacles of strength, endurance and technical ability but I do love it and keep finding my way back to it.

When I speak of "this being new to me", I refer to putting in practice the various options discussed further up in this thread to try and minimize the possibility of the leader falling directly on the belay or the impact of such a fall. Feel free to read it if you want to know what this is about.
In that case, with that base of experience, somewhere along the line you've picked up a skewed view of the forces involved, what is needed and what constitutes excessive overkill. Not having learned these topics leads to carrying more stuff than you need, increasing belay setup and takedown time, and a propensity to create belay clusterfucks. It causes things like building a 22kN bomber anchor for a simple redirect in addition to the primary anchor.

See the other thread about newbs using 11mm static line and steel quick-links to build a quad for a simple sport climbing TR anchor instead of a pair of QDs.


jktinst


Sep 28, 2011, 10:36 AM
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Re: [marc801] When to place the Jesus nut [In reply to]
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When I talked about applying "at least some of the usual TR precautions", it wasn't the brute force bombproofness that I was thinking about, more the redundancy aspects that bring to an absolute minimum the risks that the system might come unclipped from the bolt or the rope.

In the case of the QD redirect illustrated in the DAV manual, provided the bolt looks good, it wouldn't bother me that there isn't a 2nd back-up bolt as you would normally have for a proper TR anchor. But I would want the bolt-side biner to be a locker and I would use two opposed-gate biners on the rope side.

Go ahead and consider that ridiculous overkill. To me, it's just simple common sense for a redirect anchor whose failure could have extemely serious consequences since its back-up in the main belay will be completely ineffective some of the time.


shockabuku


Sep 28, 2011, 10:46 AM
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Re: [jktinst] When to place the Jesus nut [In reply to]
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jktinst wrote:
When I talked about applying "at least some of the usual TR precautions", it wasn't the brute force bombproofness that I was thinking about, more the redundancy aspects that bring to an absolute minimum the risks that the system might come unclipped from the bolt or the rope.

In the case of the QD redirect illustrated in the DAV manual, provided the bolt looks good, it wouldn't bother me that there isn't a 2nd back-up bolt as you would normally have for a proper TR anchor. But I would want the bolt-side biner to be a locker and I would use two opposed-gate biners on the rope side.

Go ahead and consider that ridiculous overkill. To me, it's just simple common sense for a redirect anchor whose failure could have extemely serious consequences since its back-up in the main belay will be completely ineffective some of the time.

In reference to the bolded part, what do you mean - that at the beginning of the pitch there is a risk of decking?


(This post was edited by shockabuku on Sep 28, 2011, 10:47 AM)


jktinst


Sep 28, 2011, 3:05 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] When to place the Jesus nut [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
jktinst wrote:
... To me, it's just simple common sense for a redirect anchor whose failure could have extemely serious consequences since its back-up in the main belay will be completely ineffective some of the time.

In reference to the bolded part, what do you mean - that at the beginning of the pitch there is a risk of decking?

Yes, as I explained in my first reply to Marc801


jktinst


May 6, 2013, 6:37 PM
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Re: [jktinst] When to place the Jesus nut [In reply to]
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This thread in MP.com (http://www.mountainproject.com/...ce-of-gear/108115434) deals with various aspects covered here and I want to post to it and refer to this thread (how's that for cross-referencing?). I've meant to post an update here for some time so this was the opportunity to do it. For those new to this old thread: a few helpful shoves, including some from Largo, shifted the discussion towards approaches aiming to eliminate the possibility of a leader falling directly on a mid-route trad belay (or to severely limit the impact of such a fall). My long post on p.3 attempted to summarize the various approaches discussed up to that point (other than stancing). I have not come across other approaches since.

In posts subsequent to that long one, I discussed some of the practical implications of clipping the first progression anchor of the next pitch as part of the previous pitch (option 3 in the summary). More recently, the option of placing and clipping the first couple of progression pros of the next pitch at arm's length while being belayed on (and avoiding, as much as possible, climbing above) the previous pro, (option 1a in the summary) became the topic of a lengthy exchange in this other thread (http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;). I didn't start out intending to discuss this option in detail but ended up doing it in a very aphazard way. I thought it would make sense to summarize the main points from that discussion here.

A) effectively securing the leader on the previous pro while he places and clips the next one.
The only viable solution for this seems to be to use two ropes and have the belayer hold one of them securely at the same time as paying out slack on the other for clipping the next pro. When climbing with a single rope, I have my belayer carry a length of 5m of dynamic rope. I tie into it with a clove-hitch on a locker to be able to use the double rope technique over the first couple of progression pros. I simply unclip this extra rope from my harness (letting the belayer recover it) before resuming normal, single-rope leading above the 2nd progression pro. Lock-assist belay devices make the simultaneous holding of one rope while paying out armloads of slack on the other easier and more secure. The only such devices I tried for this are the Mammut Smart Alpine and the Edelrid Mega Jul (although the second is much poorer than the first at locking unassisted). For these devices to work properly, the two ropes must be of the same diameter. This is pretty standard with half-ropes but finding 5-6 m of dynamic rope in the same diameter as one's regular single rope may take a bit of looking.

B) clipping the highest pro of the main belay anchor
Although I still don't like leading on after having clipped the highest pro of the belay anchor (option 2 in the summary), it seems to make sense to use this technique in the context of option 1a because it allows for a higher placement of the first proper progression pro. The risk that a very mild TR-type fall on this high pro would rip it out and destabilize the rest of the anchor should really be minimal (and if it really did rip out with such an easy arrest, it would mean that this pro contributed next to nothing to the strength of the anchor). I clip the rope to this high belay pro through a separate biner and recover the biner (releasing the rope) as soon I've clipped the first progression pro at arm's length from it and have confirmation from my belayer that Iím being belayed securely on it.

As mentioned in the other thread, working out the detailed steps for the leader and belayer to get through the first couple of progression pros while applying the general principle of this option (either with two half-ropes or with a single rope plus a short additional rope) can lead to a list that, if presented in writing, looks much more complicated than it really is (like describing how to do a Fig. 8 knot with nothing but the written word). Any competent leader intent on applying this option can easily come up with steps that will work for them.

The lowered belayer option (option 1b in the summary) remains my 3rd/last choice because it usually implies that there are no pro placement options either above or below the main belay anchor and because it uses up rope that may be needed to complete the next pitch. It also leaves the belayer hanging well-below the belay anchor, unable to keep an eye on it and rapidly tweak or reinforce it, if needed.

As an illustration of both the potential difficulties of applying some of these no-FF2 options as well as the fact that, in many circumstances, at least one of them (or a combination) will be feasible, I thought Iíd relate the following anecdote. One time early in my implementation of these options, arriving at the belay ledge, I plain forgot to evaluate whether I could go on to place and clip the first pro of the next pitch. I reverted to old habits, simply set up a traditional belay and started bringing up my second. Only then did I realize not only that there seemed to be good, pro-friendly horizontal cracks at around 1.5 and 2.5 m above the belay anchor but that the ledge I was standing on was off to the side of the next pitch and not in the way of a potential fall. In addition, I also had enough rope and gear left to complete the "up and back down" manoeuvre to and from the higher of the two cracks. After kicking myself for not taking advantage of these apparently ideal conditions for my first choice option, I set out leading the next pitch thinking to use my second choice, the armís length clipping method on the single rope plus additional short rope. Unfortunately, the first of the horizontal cracks was, in fact, a very shallow groove and completely unusable for pros and the next "crack" up appeared to be the same. I stepped back down to the belay and used the short rope to lower my belayer to a hanging position a few metres below the ledge before restarting the lead. The second "crack" was indeed the same useless kind of groove and there was basically no pro option for the first 7 m of that pitch (so, even if I had remembered to do my little evaluation upon arrival at the belay position, I would definitely not have had enough rope to go 7m up to clip the fist pro of the next pitch and come back down to the ledge). At the next belay, I was able to set a solid cam as a first progression pro of the next pitch where the intended belay position was described in the topo and downclimb back to a secondary position a few metres below with a small ledge and good options for my main multi-pro belay anchor. The next pitch was short enough that the rope used up by setting up the lower belay was not a concern.


surfstar


May 6, 2013, 9:57 PM
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Re: [jktinst] When to place the Jesus nut [In reply to]
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Crazy ^wow.

So, if there is no pro at arms length off a belay, do you bail?

There are many times when the leader must not fall, or it could be pretty bad. If you're not okay with that, stick to sport (single pitch only of course), gym and bouldering.

Crazy


acorneau


May 7, 2013, 7:02 PM
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Re: [jktinst] When to place the Jesus nut [In reply to]
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jktinst wrote:
This thread in MP.com (http://www.mountainproject.com/...ce-of-gear/108115434) deals with various aspects covered here and I want to post to it and refer to this thread (how's that for cross-referencing?). I've meant to post an update here for some time so this was the opportunity to do it. For those new to this old thread: a few helpful shoves, including some from Largo, shifted the discussion towards approaches aiming to eliminate the possibility of a leader falling directly on a mid-route trad belay (or to severely limit the impact of such a fall). My long post on p.3 attempted to summarize the various approaches discussed up to that point (other than stancing). I have not come across other approaches since.

In posts subsequent to that long one, I discussed some of the practical implications of clipping the first progression anchor of the next pitch as part of the previous pitch (option 3 in the summary). More recently, the option of placing and clipping the first couple of progression pros of the next pitch at arm's length while being belayed on (and avoiding, as much as possible, climbing above) the previous pro, (option 1a in the summary) became the topic of a lengthy exchange in this other thread (http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;). I didn't start out intending to discuss this option in detail but ended up doing it in a very aphazard way. I thought it would make sense to summarize the main points from that discussion here.

A) effectively securing the leader on the previous pro while he places and clips the next one.
The only viable solution for this seems to be to use two ropes and have the belayer hold one of them securely at the same time as paying out slack on the other for clipping the next pro. When climbing with a single rope, I have my belayer carry a length of 5m of dynamic rope. I tie into it with a clove-hitch on a locker to be able to use the double rope technique over the first couple of progression pros. I simply unclip this extra rope from my harness (letting the belayer recover it) before resuming normal, single-rope leading above the 2nd progression pro. Lock-assist belay devices make the simultaneous holding of one rope while paying out armloads of slack on the other easier and more secure. The only such devices I tried for this are the Mammut Smart Alpine and the Edelrid Mega Jul (although the second is much poorer than the first at locking unassisted). For these devices to work properly, the two ropes must be of the same diameter. This is pretty standard with half-ropes but finding 5-6 m of dynamic rope in the same diameter as one's regular single rope may take a bit of looking.

B) clipping the highest pro of the main belay anchor
Although I still don't like leading on after having clipped the highest pro of the belay anchor (option 2 in the summary), it seems to make sense to use this technique in the context of option 1a because it allows for a higher placement of the first proper progression pro. The risk that a very mild TR-type fall on this high pro would rip it out and destabilize the rest of the anchor should really be minimal (and if it really did rip out with such an easy arrest, it would mean that this pro contributed next to nothing to the strength of the anchor). I clip the rope to this high belay pro through a separate biner and recover the biner (releasing the rope) as soon I've clipped the first progression pro at arm's length from it and have confirmation from my belayer that Iím being belayed securely on it.

As mentioned in the other thread, working out the detailed steps for the leader and belayer to get through the first couple of progression pros while applying the general principle of this option (either with two half-ropes or with a single rope plus a short additional rope) can lead to a list that, if presented in writing, looks much more complicated than it really is (like describing how to do a Fig. 8 knot with nothing but the written word). Any competent leader intent on applying this option can easily come up with steps that will work for them.

The lowered belayer option (option 1b in the summary) remains my 3rd/last choice because it usually implies that there are no pro placement options either above or below the main belay anchor and because it uses up rope that may be needed to complete the next pitch. It also leaves the belayer hanging well-below the belay anchor, unable to keep an eye on it and rapidly tweak or reinforce it, if needed.

As an illustration of both the potential difficulties of applying some of these no-FF2 options as well as the fact that, in many circumstances, at least one of them (or a combination) will be feasible, I thought Iíd relate the following anecdote. One time early in my implementation of these options, arriving at the belay ledge, I plain forgot to evaluate whether I could go on to place and clip the first pro of the next pitch. I reverted to old habits, simply set up a traditional belay and started bringing up my second. Only then did I realize not only that there seemed to be good, pro-friendly horizontal cracks at around 1.5 and 2.5 m above the belay anchor but that the ledge I was standing on was off to the side of the next pitch and not in the way of a potential fall. In addition, I also had enough rope and gear left to complete the "up and back down" manoeuvre to and from the higher of the two cracks. After kicking myself for not taking advantage of these apparently ideal conditions for my first choice option, I set out leading the next pitch thinking to use my second choice, the armís length clipping method on the single rope plus additional short rope. Unfortunately, the first of the horizontal cracks was, in fact, a very shallow groove and completely unusable for pros and the next "crack" up appeared to be the same. I stepped back down to the belay and used the short rope to lower my belayer to a hanging position a few metres below the ledge before restarting the lead. The second "crack" was indeed the same useless kind of groove and there was basically no pro option for the first 7 m of that pitch (so, even if I had remembered to do my little evaluation upon arrival at the belay position, I would definitely not have had enough rope to go 7m up to clip the fist pro of the next pitch and come back down to the ledge). At the next belay, I was able to set a solid cam as a first progression pro of the next pitch where the intended belay position was described in the topo and downclimb back to a secondary position a few metres below with a small ledge and good options for my main multi-pro belay anchor. The next pitch was short enough that the rope used up by setting up the lower belay was not a concern.


I'm going to read this tomorrow.

Wink


hugepedro


May 7, 2013, 11:09 PM
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Re: [jktinst] When to place the Jesus nut [In reply to]
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jktinst wrote:
a whole lotta useless stuff...

1. Thank god for your post. I had no idea I've been doing it wrong this whole time! I COULDA DIED!!!

2. I hope you won't mind if I pass you while you're fiddling around with all that crap.


JimTitt


May 7, 2013, 11:43 PM
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Re: [acorneau] When to place the Jesus nut [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
jktinst wrote:
This thread in MP.com (http://www.mountainproject.com/...ce-of-gear/108115434) deals with various aspects covered here and I want to post to it and refer to this thread (how's that for cross-referencing?). I've meant to post an update here for some time so this was the opportunity to do it. For those new to this old thread: a few helpful shoves, including some from Largo, shifted the discussion towards approaches aiming to eliminate the possibility of a leader falling directly on a mid-route trad belay (or to severely limit the impact of such a fall). My long post on p.3 attempted to summarize the various approaches discussed up to that point (other than stancing). I have not come across other approaches since.

In posts subsequent to that long one, I discussed some of the practical implications of clipping the first progression anchor of the next pitch as part of the previous pitch (option 3 in the summary). More recently, the option of placing and clipping the first couple of progression pros of the next pitch at arm's length while being belayed on (and avoiding, as much as possible, climbing above) the previous pro, (option 1a in the summary) became the topic of a lengthy exchange in this other thread (http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;). I didn't start out intending to discuss this option in detail but ended up doing it in a very aphazard way. I thought it would make sense to summarize the main points from that discussion here.

A) effectively securing the leader on the previous pro while he places and clips the next one.
The only viable solution for this seems to be to use two ropes and have the belayer hold one of them securely at the same time as paying out slack on the other for clipping the next pro. When climbing with a single rope, I have my belayer carry a length of 5m of dynamic rope. I tie into it with a clove-hitch on a locker to be able to use the double rope technique over the first couple of progression pros. I simply unclip this extra rope from my harness (letting the belayer recover it) before resuming normal, single-rope leading above the 2nd progression pro. Lock-assist belay devices make the simultaneous holding of one rope while paying out armloads of slack on the other easier and more secure. The only such devices I tried for this are the Mammut Smart Alpine and the Edelrid Mega Jul (although the second is much poorer than the first at locking unassisted). For these devices to work properly, the two ropes must be of the same diameter. This is pretty standard with half-ropes but finding 5-6 m of dynamic rope in the same diameter as one's regular single rope may take a bit of looking.

B) clipping the highest pro of the main belay anchor
Although I still don't like leading on after having clipped the highest pro of the belay anchor (option 2 in the summary), it seems to make sense to use this technique in the context of option 1a because it allows for a higher placement of the first proper progression pro. The risk that a very mild TR-type fall on this high pro would rip it out and destabilize the rest of the anchor should really be minimal (and if it really did rip out with such an easy arrest, it would mean that this pro contributed next to nothing to the strength of the anchor). I clip the rope to this high belay pro through a separate biner and recover the biner (releasing the rope) as soon I've clipped the first progression pro at arm's length from it and have confirmation from my belayer that Iím being belayed securely on it.

As mentioned in the other thread, working out the detailed steps for the leader and belayer to get through the first couple of progression pros while applying the general principle of this option (either with two half-ropes or with a single rope plus a short additional rope) can lead to a list that, if presented in writing, looks much more complicated than it really is (like describing how to do a Fig. 8 knot with nothing but the written word). Any competent leader intent on applying this option can easily come up with steps that will work for them.

The lowered belayer option (option 1b in the summary) remains my 3rd/last choice because it usually implies that there are no pro placement options either above or below the main belay anchor and because it uses up rope that may be needed to complete the next pitch. It also leaves the belayer hanging well-below the belay anchor, unable to keep an eye on it and rapidly tweak or reinforce it, if needed.

As an illustration of both the potential difficulties of applying some of these no-FF2 options as well as the fact that, in many circumstances, at least one of them (or a combination) will be feasible, I thought Iíd relate the following anecdote. One time early in my implementation of these options, arriving at the belay ledge, I plain forgot to evaluate whether I could go on to place and clip the first pro of the next pitch. I reverted to old habits, simply set up a traditional belay and started bringing up my second. Only then did I realize not only that there seemed to be good, pro-friendly horizontal cracks at around 1.5 and 2.5 m above the belay anchor but that the ledge I was standing on was off to the side of the next pitch and not in the way of a potential fall. In addition, I also had enough rope and gear left to complete the "up and back down" manoeuvre to and from the higher of the two cracks. After kicking myself for not taking advantage of these apparently ideal conditions for my first choice option, I set out leading the next pitch thinking to use my second choice, the armís length clipping method on the single rope plus additional short rope. Unfortunately, the first of the horizontal cracks was, in fact, a very shallow groove and completely unusable for pros and the next "crack" up appeared to be the same. I stepped back down to the belay and used the short rope to lower my belayer to a hanging position a few metres below the ledge before restarting the lead. The second "crack" was indeed the same useless kind of groove and there was basically no pro option for the first 7 m of that pitch (so, even if I had remembered to do my little evaluation upon arrival at the belay position, I would definitely not have had enough rope to go 7m up to clip the fist pro of the next pitch and come back down to the ledge). At the next belay, I was able to set a solid cam as a first progression pro of the next pitch where the intended belay position was described in the topo and downclimb back to a secondary position a few metres below with a small ledge and good options for my main multi-pro belay anchor. The next pitch was short enough that the rope used up by setting up the lower belay was not a concern.


I'm going to read this tomorrow.

Wink

Use the time for something worthwhile, stare at some clouds, watch your lawn grow or whatever.


jktinst


Sep 29, 2013, 7:46 PM
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Re: [JimTitt] When to place the Jesus nut [In reply to]
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Another jig out of the grave by the thread that won't die.

I should have known that the DAV recommendation of clipping the first pro of the next pitch at the end of the previous one was neither new nor exclusive to the DAV. I just got told on the French camptocamp forum that this technique has been known and recommended for many years. More recently, the Petzl Foundation sponsored and provided technical support for the production by the UIAA of a publication called (in French) "Memento Montagne ete", basically a quick illustrated guide of tried and true techniques for instructors of summer alpine and rock climbing activities of alpine club chapters, federations, etc. The guide is (or was in Dec. 2012) being advertised for a low price to the organizations as a reference resource.

The link below is for the old news page of one of France's alpine club chapters. Most chapters had similar news pages but this one also has a link at the bottom for a memento.pdf document containing excerpts from the publication, which, conveniently, includes a clear illustration of the technique.

http://cafvoironchartreuse.ffcam.fr/...id=T005:4sucn0wgrgdz

(This post was edited by jktinst on Sep 29, 2013, 7:47 PM)

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