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decision making in high-risk situation
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jacques


Oct 8, 2013, 6:24 PM
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decision making in high-risk situation
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I found that article on decision making. What they call heuristic trap can be a process very important in today's climbing accident.

http://www.snowpit.com/articles/traps%20reprint.pdf


(This post was edited by jacques on Oct 16, 2013, 7:12 PM)


gblauer
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Oct 8, 2013, 7:23 PM
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Re: [jacques] decision making in high-risk situation [In reply to]
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jacques wrote:
I found that article on decision making. What they call heuristic trap can be a process very important in today's climbing accident.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/...ep=rep1&type=pdf


jacques


Oct 9, 2013, 5:56 AM
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Re: [jacques] decision making in high-risk situation [In reply to]
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jacques wrote:
I found that article on decision making. What they call heuristic trap can be a process very important in today's climbing accident.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.112.9810&rep=rep1&type=pdf

The article is very important to prevent accident, particularly in trad climbing.

Every body know what is a reflex action. But do you know that the brain also do short cut, call heuristic cue, when there is to much information coming at the same time to the brain?

In the article, they describe the rational way that people think like keeping the rope even when you rappelling. Although it is rational, many climber died with uneven rope. In the article they demonstrate that it is because the brain use short cut. The experience climber rap safely at the same place, so the place is safe he just have to rap (familiarity cue). In that short cut, the climber don't ask to himself where is the danger? O.K. the rope don't touch the ground. I am in danger.

In the article, he describe that the regular process of taking decision can be harder if you do more than one task at the same time. If you clip a bolt and place the rope in it, as it is done in sport, it is less task than if you have to find the route, find a rest, find a place for a stopper, find the good nut, place the nut, etc. It is like someone who learn mathematic in his native language, French, and someone who speek an English and have to learn mathematic in French. There is more task...even if the two person are as intelligent one than the other.

And what about safety? Actually, if you learn trad, you are going to begin by doing sport. In sport climbing, there is many social proof heuristic, a short cut that you are going to do when the brain have many task to do at a same time.
As you going to trad, you will have many task to accomplish, one of these is to not be stress when you think that a stopper can pop out. When you trad, you are going to make short cut: you are going to use "social proof heuristic" as a reflex to get out of a situation.

Unfortunately, those cue are base on two or three observation and they can be wrong. It is the reason why we have so many accident today. parents and friends will say the guy was safe as he did all the social proof heuristic, he had a lot of experience, but he use always the same short cut. Knowing what is heuristic cue and trying to avoid it by training and looking at where is the danger seem to be important in teaching climbing.


(This post was edited by jacques on Oct 9, 2013, 6:00 AM)


6pacfershur


Oct 9, 2013, 11:02 AM
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Re: [jacques] decision making in high-risk situation [In reply to]
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jacques wrote:

....And what about safety? Actually, if you learn trad, you are going to begin by doing sport....

possibly, but not absolutely....


jacques


Oct 14, 2013, 5:43 PM
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Re: [6pacfershur] decision making in high-risk situation [In reply to]
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6pacfershur wrote:
jacques wrote:
....And what about safety? Actually, if you learn trad, you are going to begin by doing sport....
possibly, but not absolutely....

You are right. But it is a little bit rare today that people learn to climb in top rope and have the chance to do a multi pitch at his third or fourth trip. People learn bouldering, gym or sport and they are doing a knowledge transfert of what they learned previously to climb in trad.

It is where I saw the problem. We know how work and arc reflex (link at the bottom). In the article of heuristic clue, they describe a similar situation in the brain. When there is too much information going to the brain at the same time, the brain use an "arc reflex" (short cut). Instead of making a rational decision, they use information that work previously in what they learn.

As people boulder, sport or gym first, they will use short cut or behavior (way in which a person acts in response to a particular situation or stimulus.) as an answer to a problem

For example, if you use to make an hard move to clip the next bolt to get out of a situation you will reproduce that comportment as an arc reflex. In a dangerous situation where you can injure your head, you will try to do the same think. Placing a pro and clipping a bolt is not the same think and the answer doing the hard move and clip the bolt is not working. This is a kind of arc reflex, call heuristic cue in the article of McComman. And it can be very dangerous.

I don't care that people like more sport, boulder or trad, I am concern about accident.



link to arc reflex)http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://img.docstoccdn.com/thumb/orig/2364145.png&imgrefurl=http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2364145/Review-of-reflex-arc&h=1125&w=1500&sz=785&tbnid=U-1ytzQ07yP7TM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=147&zoom=1&usg=__-j6KKpt2k166g8rzFNJdUs41Q3s=&docid=5ohhrt8EDSZUBM&sa=X&ei=HIpcUuazErPc4APU24CYCA&sqi=2&ved=0CD0Q9QEwBA


Danxz


Oct 20, 2013, 12:36 PM
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Re: [gblauer] decision making in high-risk situation [In reply to]
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Social heuristic sounds similar to the Asch Effect ... the herd instinct. I saw this in a very crowded local climbing gym recently, where I estimate 70% of belayers, including lead belayers, were lowering with a single, open hand on the rope tail, with climbers falling like rain.


jacques


Oct 23, 2013, 9:18 PM
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Re: [Danxz] decision making in high-risk situation [In reply to]
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Danxz wrote:
Social heuristic sounds similar to the Asch Effect ... the herd instinct.

I took some time to read about Asch effect.

In the test, I think that Asch observe the decision to be in a group (conformity) more than a way to make decision.

In heuristic is define like that: "A heuristic is a mental shortcut that allows people to solve problems and make judgments quickly and efficiently. These rule-of-thumb strategies shorten decision-making time and allow people to function without constantly stopping to think about the next course of action. While heuristics are helpful in many situations, they can also lead to biases".

What I am saying is heuristic clue lead to biases in hig-risk situation...

unfortunately, they can work well without risk and many people use the Asch effect to gave easy courses safely for them, not for the climber when he will be alone on the cliff.

When you read accident in north American mountaineering, you saw many of those incomprehensible accident: " my son was so safe, can't understand that he did that"


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