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majid_sabet
Nov 1, 2013, 2:08 AM
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This accident happened in June 2013 in UK and I think the recent report explains what went wrong. it appears that belayer's anchor may had been insufficient to handle FF2 of leader fall causing both climbers to fall more than 100 meter in to sea water . There has been a lot of topics on climbing forums regarding how strong the belay anchor should be and I had mentioned that IMO, the anchor should as strong as possible to withstand the worse case scenario of two climbers falling simultaneously . on the other hand, build your anchor so it can handle at least 20 KN of forces . This is assuming an average of 5KN is used per pieces of artificial protections (Based on mountain rescue typical anchor building guidelines) regardless of what the individual protecting rating are (nut, cam etc) .
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/...m-fall-south-6259075
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curt
Nov 1, 2013, 2:31 AM
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Sounds remarkably similar to how my friend Andy Metz and his partner died 30 years ago--another FF2 fall scenario.
ANAM wrote: FALL ON ROCK, INADEQUATE PROTECTION New York, Adirondacks On July 3, 1983, Lee Fowler (32) and Andrew Metz (22) were killed when they fell about 90 meters from Wallface in the Adirondacks. Fowler was six to eight meters above Metz, with no protection in, when he fell, pulling both Metz and his protection from the belay position. (Source: Discussion between the Editor and Jim Wagoner, Adirondack climber and rescue team member)
Curt
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majid_sabet
Nov 1, 2013, 2:36 AM
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Curt
I think, I could recall reading several cases like this in Yosemite and there was one or two in S cal in early 2000s very similar to this.
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rgold
Nov 1, 2013, 5:00 PM
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The question of how good belay anchors should be is a perennial source of debate. It is guaranteed that during the course of any such discussion, someone will suggest that factor-2 falls that extract the belay anchor are some kind of myth and never or almost never actually happen. I don't try to keep track of such things, and I don't know exactly how to do so even if I wanted to, but my vague impression is that I hear about an accident of this type once every 5 years or so. If Majid's recollections are accurate, then that estimate is on the low side. Since factor-2 falls that don't result in an accident are not reported, we have absolutely no idea what fraction of such falls result in disaster.
The fact remains that most belay anchors are never tested, and so that generations of climbers and guides actually have never had any genuine practical feedback on the strength of the anchors they build. Mostly, someone presumed to be expert, someone whose anchors have also never been tested, looks over the learner's work and pronounces it adequate.
This being the case, I think it surprising that there aren't more bad anchor accidents. In my opinion, the substantial infrequency of factor-2 falls is the only thing keeping this statistic low, because I'd bet a significant proportion of climber-built anchors would not be up to the task.
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bearbreeder
Nov 7, 2013, 3:07 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: This accident happened in June 2013 in UK and I think the recent report explains what went wrong. it appears that belayer's anchor may had been insufficient to handle FF2 of leader fall causing both climbers to fall more than 100 meter in to sea water . There has been a lot of topics on climbing forums regarding how strong the belay anchor should be and I had mentioned that IMO, the anchor should as strong as possible to withstand the worse case scenario of two climbers falling simultaneously . on the other hand, build your anchor so it can handle at least 20 KN of forces . This is assuming an average of 5KN is used per pieces of artificial protections (Based on mountain rescue typical anchor building guidelines) regardless of what the individual protecting rating are (nut, cam etc) . http://www.dailypost.co.uk/...m-fall-south-6259075
majid ...
you are mistaken in this particular case and making unfounded assumptions ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-24750771
"We don't know why Vaughan fell. We don't know why Jack decided not to hook on to the cliff."
.....
It appeared Mr Hutton-Potts was waiting to climb and occasionally when starting off it was a "judgement call" about whether to use a belay - a kind of anchoring equipment for climbers.
"Had they been belayed it's possible the fall wouldn't have had the consequences it had," he added.
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JimTitt
Nov 7, 2013, 4:25 PM
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The route they fell from (The Gauntlet) is on the upper tier, like a lot of routes at Gogarth you start from various more or less scary places having approached by some adventurous soloing on greasy grass where a slip would be fatal. The reports donīt suggest any gear was attatched to the climbers indicating a failed belay so they probably fell from the start of the route.
One of the climberīs brother was killed in a fall in the Alps in 2009.
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majid_sabet
Nov 7, 2013, 6:03 PM
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is there anything out there to anchor yourself as a belayer ?
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JimTitt
Nov 7, 2013, 7:15 PM
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Jeez, I climbed that in 1971! You expect me to remember a belay at the start?
Gogarth is adventure climbing with a big A and standing on some grotty ledge trying not to slide to your doom is par for the course there.
There was a `properībelay failure there many years ago when the pegs failed on one of the routes around Concrete Chimney area and both climbers ended up in the sea, one drowned.
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rgold
Nov 9, 2013, 5:13 PM
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Although I don't retract my generic statement upthread, it does seem that it might not be relevant to this particular tragedy.
Although trad climbers in the U.S. accept the risks presented by poorly-protected leads, I think there is a fairly general consensus that it is ok to install bolts at belays that genuinely offer no anchoring possibilities. This is not the case in the U.K., where trad really means dealing with the situation the rock presents, and if there are no belay anchors, then the party will have to do without or else climb somewhere else.
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