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Permadraw Anchor
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jberk


Dec 1, 2013, 2:12 PM
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Permadraw Anchor
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Hello, I am pretty new to climbing so any advice would be greatly appreciated. Here in Austin at the Green Belt, some anchor bolts are equipped with permadraws. When setting up a top rope do i clip my quickdraw right onto the permadraw (metal on metal)? Or do i attach a sling to both ends of the permadraws and use 2 carabiners for the rope through point? Is there another method? Thanks so much.


lena_chita
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Dec 1, 2013, 3:57 PM
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Re: [jberk] Permadraw Anchor [In reply to]
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jberk wrote:
Hello, I am pretty new to climbing so any advice would be greatly appreciated. Here in Austin at the Green Belt, some anchor bolts are equipped with permadraws. When setting up a top rope do i clip my quickdraw right onto the permadraw (metal on metal)? Or do i attach a sling to both ends of the permadraws and use 2 carabiners for the rope through point? Is there another method? Thanks so much.

Metal-on-metal is not really a concern in this particular case (you do clip metal bolts with your quickdraws, without having a panic attack, right?), but creating an unnecessary chain of multiple elements when you can have a simpler system is not ideal. E.i. I wouldn't be clipping my draw into the permadraw tp set up toprope, but it is not because I am concerned about metal-on-metal contact.

For some reason I am having a feeling that maybe the perma-draws I am talking about are not the perma-draws that you are talking about... Given that you say you are new, can you describe the anchor setup in a bit more detail? is it really one of these?
Or is it chains/quicklinks with aluminum leaver 'biners?

I do lower on perma-draws on a regular basis, but I have never toproped through permadraws, in a large part because I have never seen a route that was easily-toprope-able AND was also equipped with permadraws.

It would be best to ask someone local who knows what the acceptable attitude is in your area. From what little I know of the area, it sounds like a small urban crag, people may be considering it essentially an outdoor gym, equipped with draws for convenience, and thus lowering and toproping through permadraws might be the norm.

My personal opinion would be that if you have one person toproping the route after you lead it, they can just toprope through permadraws, not a big deal. But if you are setting up toprope for a large group of people who are going to be doing laps all day, set up your own anchor using slings or draws clipped directly to anchors or chains (not permadraws), and clean at the end of the day, unless you hear from someone local that it is O.k. to toprope through the anchor draws.

Even steel draws wear out. If you do decide to toprope through perma-draws, make sure to inspect them for wear before you set up topropes, and if you do it on a regular basis, make sure to find out who equips the routes, and give them some money... and/or buy a few permadraws and do the community service and replace the worn ones as you see them.


shockabuku


Dec 1, 2013, 4:06 PM
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Re: [jberk] Permadraw Anchor [In reply to]
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Can you describe "permadraw" a little more clearly?

Usually I clip my draws to the bolt hangers, leaving the bottom connection of the "permadraws" (chain link, screwlink, biner, etc.) open, so I can eventually lower off of them without having to fight to get my draws back out (after I put the rope in there and weight it).

Just make sure wherever you clip your draws isn't putting weird loading on the biners.


jberk


Dec 1, 2013, 5:10 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Permadraw Anchor [In reply to]
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The picture of the draws you listed are almost exactly what are on the anchors. Thanks so much for all the info and advice. Next time I go climb i will be sure to ask the local educate whether to lower/rappel.


kennoyce


Dec 2, 2013, 7:17 AM
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Re: [jberk] Permadraw Anchor [In reply to]
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jberk wrote:
Hello, I am pretty new to climbing so any advice would be greatly appreciated. Here in Austin at the Green Belt, some anchor bolts are equipped with permadraws. When setting up a top rope do i clip my quickdraw right onto the permadraw (metal on metal)? Or do i attach a sling to both ends of the permadraws and use 2 carabiners for the rope through point? Is there another method? Thanks so much.

The permadraws are on the anchor to make lowering off quicker and safer, there is no reason whatsoever for rapping off.

As far as toproping is concerned, toproping through the permadraws (even iff they are steel) will just wear them out more quickly for no good reason. Just clip two draws to the bolt hanger that the permadraws are attached too and toprope through your own draws. When the last person is done toproping and ready to clean he just clips the permadraws to the rope before unclipping your draws, then lowers off the permadraws.


viciado


Dec 5, 2013, 9:05 AM
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Re: [kennoyce] Permadraw Anchor [In reply to]
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While Kenny is right that top roping through the anchors is not appropriate in many areas... At the Green Belt in Austin, it is fine (ie common and accepted practice) to use the clips for top roping. The biners are steel and intended to stand up to the abuse in order to help reduce high traffic demands and make it easier for beginners.


marc801


Dec 5, 2013, 9:23 AM
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Re: [viciado] Permadraw Anchor [In reply to]
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viciado wrote:
While Kenny is right that top roping through the anchors is not appropriate in many areas... At the Green Belt in Austin, it is fine (ie common and accepted practice)....
Each area has its own ethics and acceptable practices. No single rule fits all. It is the climbers' responsibility to find out this info before making any assumptions. In general though, when in doubt, TR through your own gear.


budman


Dec 6, 2013, 7:43 AM
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Re: [marc801] Permadraw Anchor [In reply to]
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Must disagree in the fact that the one rule that applies to all climbing areas is that friction equals wear and more wear means that anchors need to be replaced more often despite what the local accepted practices are.

Will not go into how to set up top rope anchors as that is for another time. Top roping through your own gear reduces wear on the anchor. Lowering off through the permanent anchor no matter what type of climbing your doing increases wear. Rappelling off of a permanent anchor and pulling your rope is the least amount of wear on the anchor barring walking off of the climb.

The laws of physics say that if you add friction to the system there will be wear despite the accepted local practice. Guess it comes down to do I want to wear out the anchor sooner than later and who is going to pay to replace the anchor and take the time to do it.

Personally I rap off of everything 98% of the time but I am also willing to replace worn anchors.


rocknice2


Dec 6, 2013, 7:56 AM
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Re: [budman] Permadraw Anchor [In reply to]
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At a my home crag we have these ram horn type anchors that are meant to be lowered off off. Standard practice is TR off personal gear and last climber can lower from horns. This also applies to a team that leads everything. The first leader leaves a set of draws and the last leader lowers off anchor.

If I see a permadraw, I conclude that its there for lowering. TR is always off personal gear.


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