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Figure 8 descender - with or without ears?
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tpcollins


Dec 22, 2013, 10:58 AM
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Figure 8 descender - with or without ears?
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I'm sure there's a reason for the ears but what are the major differences between using the figure 8 with versus without ears? Thanks.


acorneau


Dec 22, 2013, 12:14 PM
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Re: [tpcollins] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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tpcollins wrote:
I'm sure there's a reason for the ears but what are the major differences between using the figure 8 with versus without ears? Thanks.

The ones with ears are generally called "Rescue 8's", they're usually larger and heavier than standard (non-rescue) versions.

The ears are there to help facilitate locking off the rappel as well as to guard against the bight of rope flipping over the top and becoming girth-hitched on the device.


phoenixfire


Dec 23, 2013, 3:23 PM
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Re: [tpcollins] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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Figure 8's aren't very useful unless you're dealing with some sort of rescue operation or a super long (200+ foot) rappel. They really aren't a true piece of "climbing" equipment...pretty useless in my opinion. If you're looking to just descend, it might be of use, but really, who in there right mind would only rappel and never actually climb.?!


tpcollins


Dec 23, 2013, 4:06 PM
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Re: [phoenixfire] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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phoenixfire wrote:
but really, who in there right mind would only rappel and never actually climb.?!

Me. I'm thinking of switching from a traditional safety harness with a dorsal tether when hunting from a tree stand to a rock climbing harness to eliminate leg trauma if I fall. I'm starting to think that facing a tree if I fall is better than having my back to it. The rock climbing barnes is suppose to put less stress on the femoral artery - and I have climbing stick attached to ascend to my platform and I do use a prussic knot with a lifeline when climbing.

I was thinking having a slow controlled descent would be nice if I fell instead of just dangling there.


petsfed


Dec 23, 2013, 10:09 PM
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Re: [tpcollins] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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A slow, controlled descent is not possible without somebody there to control it. It could happen, but in all probability, your system will either lock up completely, or fail completely.

While there are load absorbing tethers, they are not designed to send you all the way to the earth, rather it will slow you down so that arresting the fall does not itself cause trauma.

As far as stress on the femoral artery, I think you need to think long and hard about whether you want a backup in case of some, highly-likely eventualities (in which case, the standard harness, perhaps with a ventral attachment point, might be the best way to go), or if you want to plan for *all* possibilities, in which case you should just stay home.


tpcollins


Dec 24, 2013, 5:21 AM
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Re: [petsfed] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
A slow, controlled descent is not possible without somebody there to control it.

if you want to plan for *all* possibilities, in which case you should just stay home.

I was hoping to get some advice on this forum without the sarcasm - maybe I need to ask on a different forum.

But if I fall from a tree stand, and I'm wearing a rock climbing harness, I have an 11mm rope tied off above me, and it's routed properly thru a figure 8/rescue 8 on my lap, and if I can't get back to the stand, I should be able to safely rappel down to the ground.

I also think I'm smart enough to first try this at a short distance off the ground until I can successfully manipulate the rescue 8 and rope. If I don't feel I can, I'll continue to use my regular safety harness. Just because I'm not already an ordained rock climber doesn't mean I can't learn how to.


(This post was edited by tpcollins on Dec 24, 2013, 5:22 AM)


petsfed


Dec 24, 2013, 6:54 AM
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Re: [tpcollins] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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Let me rephrase:
If your only means of connecting you to your anchor is a pre-rigged rappel system, if you are not, yourself, in control of that system when you fall, it WILL NOT CATCH YOU.

While the rescue-8 is easier to tie-off, those tie-offs are not meant to sustain fall loads, and I would expect your gear to fail if you tried. Moreover, even *if* the gear doesn't fail, if you don't know how to unweight the rope so that you can remove the tie-offs, you're still just gonna hang there looking stupid.

If you are solo, then any dynamic fall-arrest system will necessarily be hard to escape from, and hard to transition into rappeling. If it isn't, its because you're sacrificing fall-arrest functionality.

Definitely, educate yourself. But don't confuse a terse explanation of reality for intentionally unhelpful sarcasm.


tpcollins


Dec 24, 2013, 7:24 AM
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Re: [petsfed] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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When you explain it that way, I understand now. On one of my hunting forums, a "safety training expert" recommends a rock climbing harness over the traditional tree stand safety harness - due to less stress on the femoral artery. I keep my attachment point high enough so that when sitting, the rear attachment tether is almost taut - if I fall, I'm not falling far. I see many hunting shows on tv where hunters have the attachment point very low - if they fall, they're falling for some distance.

So I'll rethink the repelling aspect and stay with a permanent tether fixed above me. But I'm trying to understand that if I did fall a short ways, am I better off hanging in a Black Diamond Vario harness or a 2 point harness like I have shown below? Thanks.


[URL=http://s912.photobucket.com/user/tpcollins77/media/81OVUSDAsvL_SL1500__zpsfc47c14a.jpg.html]


patto


Dec 24, 2013, 12:05 PM
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Re: [tpcollins] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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Sarcastic comments and rudeness are to be expected here. Climbers think that a layman is getting themselves into dangerous territory. But I'll refrain.

Harness choice is a personal preference and mostly comes down to comfort. I've worn quite a few full harnesses and I can't figure out why they make them so damn uncomfortable. But that is probably the least pressing issue.

The bigger questions you need to ask and answer is;
1. ensuring appropriate energy absorption if you fall;
2. being able to rescue yourself after you fall.


A regular safety harness makes number 1 easy as most come with a lanyard which can stretch or progressively rip to absorb energy. A climbing harness an energy absorbing lanyard needs to be purchased as an extra.

Point 2. requires skills that cannot be easily described on the internet.


tpcollins


Dec 24, 2013, 6:22 PM
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Re: [patto] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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"An energy absorbing lanyard"

I knew this forum had the right info, thanks.


tpcollins


Dec 25, 2013, 6:42 AM
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Re: [tpcollins] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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Last question - concerning the energy absorbing lanyard:

I realize this would be a good idea for a 20' fall, but what if the fall is only 2', would it still be necessary or would a regular runner or rope be sufficient? Thanks.


acorneau


Dec 26, 2013, 5:52 AM
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Re: [tpcollins] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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tpcollins wrote:
Last question - concerning the energy absorbing lanyard:

I realize this would be a good idea for a 20' fall, but what if the fall is only 2', would it still be necessary or would a regular runner or rope be sufficient? Thanks.

I've taken a 2' fall directly onto a static sling before and it hurt like a beyotch.

I'll make some recommendations that I may or may not catch hell for, but here it goes anyway...

Consider getting a Petzl Grigri. Use it while you're ascending the ladder (self belay) making sure to keep the slack out at every step. When you're on the platform make sure it's pulled up enough so that if you lost your balance and fell off that you wouldn't really fall but just transfer weight on to the rope. If you did fall off and onto the rope you could lower yourself to the ground.

All of this is a bit complex and would require some training and practice before trusting your life to it, but it may be the kind of system you're looking for.

(Putting on Nomex suit now.)


(This post was edited by acorneau on Dec 26, 2013, 5:54 AM)


petsfed


Dec 26, 2013, 7:19 PM
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Re: [acorneau] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
tpcollins wrote:
Last question - concerning the energy absorbing lanyard:

I realize this would be a good idea for a 20' fall, but what if the fall is only 2', would it still be necessary or would a regular runner or rope be sufficient? Thanks.

I've taken a 2' fall directly onto a static sling before and it hurt like a beyotch.

I'll make some recommendations that I may or may not catch hell for, but here it goes anyway...

Consider getting a Petzl Grigri. Use it while you're ascending the ladder (self belay) making sure to keep the slack out at every step. When you're on the platform make sure it's pulled up enough so that if you lost your balance and fell off that you wouldn't really fall but just transfer weight on to the rope. If you did fall off and onto the rope you could lower yourself to the ground.

All of this is a bit complex and would require some training and practice before trusting your life to it, but it may be the kind of system you're looking for.

(Putting on Nomex suit now.)

The gri-gri might actually work pretty well, but I'd be sure to put some kind of back-up underneath it. I've had my gri-gri slip enough times while belaying somebody, and I've had my body position interfere with the cam while on self-belay, to not really trust it as a fire-and-forget device.

I'd say something like a fall-arrest lanyard (especially an energy absorbing one) for when you're up in your stand would be the best bet, then have your escape system near to hand. I wouldn't have the rappel pre-rigged, but I would want my ascent/descent rope within easy arm's reach and all of my necessary accoutrements (ascenders, rappel device, etc) already on me in case of a fall.


jalapeno


Dec 29, 2013, 2:54 AM
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Re: [tpcollins] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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tpcollins wrote:
phoenixfire wrote:
but really, who in there right mind would only rappel and never actually climb.?!

Me. I'm thinking of switching from a traditional safety harness with a dorsal tether when hunting from a tree stand to a rock climbing harness to eliminate leg trauma if I fall. I'm starting to think that facing a tree if I fall is better than having my back to it. The rock climbing barnes is suppose to put less stress on the femoral artery - and I have climbing stick attached to ascend to my platform and I do use a prussic knot with a lifeline when climbing.

I was thinking having a slow controlled descent would be nice if I fell instead of just dangling there.


Im sorry everyone is being a douche.


This is what you need(but this is wholly hypothetical and im not saying you should do this because im not an expert and have absolutely no credentials to give you advice concerning ropes/eqpuipment and your life):

Get this shock absorber lanyard. This is exactly what its made for.

http://www.ropeworksgear.com/s.nl/it.A/id.284/.f?sc=2&category=109

Some 7mm cord. Whatever, its all the same. like 10 ft of it.

Take the 7mm cord and use it to fashion your attachment to the tree. Maybe some sort of girth to the tree or tie it how ever you want.

Now get 2 Autolocking carabiners from the climbing shop when you get the 7mm cord. (youre going to have to order the shock absorber, no local shop would have that)

Clip one biner to the loop on the climbing harness, then to the end of the lanyard, then tie your cord very securely around the tree and clip the other end of the lanyard to the tree.

Use at your own risk. Im not sure why deer hunting harnesses are so shitty and seem really dangerous to me, but i would use climbing stuff if i was dumb enough to wake up at the ass crack of dawn and sit in a tree and worry about falling asleep and falling out!Wink


tpcollins


Dec 29, 2013, 5:33 AM
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Re: [petsfed] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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Thanks jalapeno, the link doesn't work but I just ordered a Buckingham fall restraint - a 44" elastic shock lanyard that stretches to 6' with a 350 pound limit. On another forum I saw a recommendation to tie off a 9mm lifeline in the tree above me and use a 7mm prussic loop, with a carabiner attached to it and a 24" loop strap that's attached to my climbing belt with another carabiner.

I'll do some "supervised" testing this summer to see which works the best and safest. I would like to see what was in your link though.


(This post was edited by tpcollins on Dec 29, 2013, 5:35 AM)


jalapeno


Dec 29, 2013, 8:31 PM
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Re: [tpcollins] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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You are aware you can just copy and paste a URL, right?

I think what you ordered is a better choice anyway, it seems like everything is ready to go and you dont need to mess around with anything else.


onceahardman


Dec 30, 2013, 3:50 AM
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Re: [jalapeno] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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jalapeno wrote:
tpcollins wrote:
phoenixfire wrote:
but really, who in there right mind would only rappel and never actually climb.?!

Me. I'm thinking of switching from a traditional safety harness with a dorsal tether when hunting from a tree stand to a rock climbing harness to eliminate leg trauma if I fall. I'm starting to think that facing a tree if I fall is better than having my back to it. The rock climbing barnes is suppose to put less stress on the femoral artery - and I have climbing stick attached to ascend to my platform and I do use a prussic knot with a lifeline when climbing.

I was thinking having a slow controlled descent would be nice if I fell instead of just dangling there.


Im sorry everyone is being a douche.


This is what you need(but this is wholly hypothetical and im not saying you should do this because im not an expert and have absolutely no credentials to give you advice concerning ropes/eqpuipment and your life):

Get this shock absorber lanyard. This is exactly what its made for.

http://www.ropeworksgear.com/...c=2&category=109

Some 7mm cord. Whatever, its all the same. like 10 ft of it.

Take the 7mm cord and use it to fashion your attachment to the tree. Maybe some sort of girth to the tree or tie it how ever you want.

Now get 2 Autolocking carabiners from the climbing shop when you get the 7mm cord. (youre going to have to order the shock absorber, no local shop would have that)

Clip one biner to the loop on the climbing harness, then to the end of the lanyard, then tie your cord very securely around the tree and clip the other end of the lanyard to the tree.

Use at your own risk. Im not sure why deer hunting harnesses are so shitty and seem really dangerous to me, but i would use climbing stuff if i was dumb enough to wake up at the ass crack of dawn and sit in a tree and worry about falling asleep and falling out!Wink

Clicky


USnavy


Dec 30, 2013, 9:40 PM
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Re: [phoenixfire] Figure 8 descender - with or without ears? [In reply to]
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phoenixfire wrote:
They really aren't a true piece of "climbing" equipment...pretty useless in my opinion.
The figure eight was one of the first belay devices made. The figure eight used to be what the ATC is now. In Europe, the figure eight is still commonly used. But yes, in America the figure eight is most useful for determining who is a noob, as extremely few experienced climbers belay with an eight.


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