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omalavet
Feb 6, 2014, 10:51 PM
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hello i just want to let people know this happened to me i was climbing with the petlz ANGE FINESSE quick draw i was a hang dog jejeje and i passed the bolt with the carbine normal in it place but then i backout and told my belayer to take slack and hold me.. but wen i try to climb down i saw the carabiner was stuck in this position and i could not get it out
at the end i got i out and nothing happened but i think that if i would take a fall on that binner due to the leverage created by it position it will break for sure! just my opinion!
(This post was edited by omalavet on Feb 6, 2014, 10:55 PM)
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potreroed
Feb 7, 2014, 3:31 AM
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Registered: Sep 30, 2001
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Well, weird stuff happens all the time but I think in this case the problem is that the bolt is placed incorrectly.
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newrivermike
Feb 7, 2014, 3:53 AM
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This isn't a problem with the type of draw or carabiner you were using. It's an issue with the hanger and 1/2" bolt combo. I can't be sure from the photo but from what I can see, and based on past experience, I bet it's a Petzl hanger and a 1/2" bolt. We're rebolting a lot of routes with this setup and I'm seeing this happen quite often now, especially after lowering off steep routes where the rope pulls the draws straight out. I'll pull the rope, look back up, and see a few draws sticking straight out from the wall similar to what is shown here.
1/2" bolts are kind of a new thing as 3/8th has always been the standard before. The problem here is that there isn't enough space between the stud/nut and the hanger. The carabiner, any brand or type, can get wedged in the small space. This is something that isn't intuitive for route equippers to know and my guess is that it's something that Petzl didn't see coming as the design of their 1/2" hanger is exactly the same as the 3/8th, just with a bigger hole drilled in it.
There is no easy fix or preventive measure for a climber to take to prevent this. You've got to either swap out the hangers with a bigger one like a Fixe hanger or, even easier and cheaper, replace the nuts with a low profile "jam nut." Do a search for "1/2" jam nut" to see what I'm talking about. Before you go swapping the nuts out on a route, though, make sure you match the metal with the stud and use the same grade of stainless, it's probably stamped on the old nut... 304 or 316 most likely.
Before everyone starts getting panicky when you see this setup on a route...you'll be fine. Most of the time, the carabiner is going to pop right back down into position. The carabiner shown in the photo must have been pulled straight up somehow which is pretty rare.
I'm just writing this here for the few that bolt or rebolt routes. It's something to be aware of.
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JimTitt
Feb 7, 2014, 6:49 AM
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Itīs a problem with all hangers really, 12mm bolt/hangers have been around for a long time and itīs not specifically them that gives problems. Older style round stock karabiners are less prone but there is always a position with every hanger and bolt combo that will hang up somewhere, somehow. Make the hangers bigger and climbers complain they put too much leverage on the bolt and visually they are worse than normal or make a design where the biner canīt jam and they are more expensive and hard to fit.
The answer is glue-ins.
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kennoyce
Feb 7, 2014, 2:16 PM
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JimTitt wrote: Itīs a problem with all hangers really, 12mm bolt/hangers have been around for a long time and itīs not specifically them that gives problems. Older style round stock karabiners are less prone but there is always a position with every hanger and bolt combo that will hang up somewhere, somehow. Make the hangers bigger and climbers complain they put too much leverage on the bolt and visually they are worse than normal or make a design where the biner canīt jam and they are more expensive and hard to fit. The answer is glue-ins.
This is all true Jim, but in my experience, the petzl hangers are much worse than the fixe hangers for use with 1/2" bolts.
Like you say though, on really overhanging routes the fixe's leverage the bolt more (not really a problem with 1/2" bolts), and they are much more visually intrusive.
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newrivermike
Feb 8, 2014, 4:20 AM
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JimTitt wrote: 12mm bolt/hangers have been around for a long time and itīs not specifically them that gives problems.
I realize that 12mm bolts and hangers have been around a long time. What I mean is that 3/8th was the standard (in the States) in the 90's when the majority of our sport climbs got bolted. I'm seeing more 1/2" being used now and there is definitely a correlation between the 'jammed biner' phenomenon and 1/2" bolts.
For example, the two routes I recently rebolted with 1/2." I climbed on them when they had the old 3/8th bolts and this never happened. I chopped the old bolts and rebolted it with 1/2" and this happened every single time without fail. After lowering off the route, anywhere that the carabiner was pulled perpendicular to the rock, the carabiner got jammed in between the nut and the hanger. I experimented with the orientation of the carabiner (gate facing left/right) and that didn't have an effect.
I agree that glue-ins are a solution to this problem but I disagree that this is a problem with all hangers and bolts. It's definitely something that happens (some high made up percentage) more often with 1/2" than 3/8th. With these two routes in particular it went from happening never, to happening every time.
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JimTitt
Feb 9, 2014, 9:09 AM
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What I meant was there isnīt a hanger/bolt/ karabiner combination that wonīt hang up in some orientation (or at least that Iīve found) apart from the old Salewa design. It doesnīt help that karabiner manufacturers have a free hand to make the things any way they like so a more or less round profile was standard in the 80īs and 90īs has turned into an I or T beam backbone which makes loads more problems. Most jamming problems luckily arenīt so serious as the hanger will rotate before the biner breaks but with some of the minimalist biners on offer these days and a hanger up against a bump in the rock I wouldnīt guarantee it!
Iīve made hangers to take countersunk heads for climbing walls where the quick links gave problems but these arenīt an answer outdoors, probably the easiest solution would be some sort of plastic cap to fit over the nut after installation but how long this would last who knows.
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majid_sabet
Feb 11, 2014, 6:33 AM
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In ITRS last year they mentioned similar situation which was very close to what you had experienced but they were using industrial carabiner and this problem exist. In fact 1-2 or incident had happened because of it where carabiber broke during fall.I can think two solution to solve this problem;
1- to make offset hanger where center of bolt is not in the middle of eye of the hanger.this has pros and cons of its own.
2-custom made bolt ( not stud) where end part is semi round that does not allow hanger to become stuck.
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