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richardvg03
Feb 28, 2014, 5:26 AM
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I have a service dog and I take him everywhere (usually that's what happens when you have a service dog, right?) but lately I've been debating the ethics of bringing my dog to the crag when I'm going to be doing a multi-pitch climb.
I have no problem taking him to the local crag (or any crag) at all. He's obviously very well behaved BUT i'm not sure about what to do when I know I'm going to be doing a 5-7 pitch route and be gone for a while. Now, he would be perfectly fine tied to a tree with a bowl of water. It's not really the dog specifically that I'm worried about. He'd lay there all day if I gave him that command. It's more the idea of what other PEOPLE would do while I'm not there. Like I said, he's a very well trained dog and he was very expensive!
Thoughts?
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meanandugly
Feb 28, 2014, 11:03 AM
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First of all thank you for your service. Now for your travel companion, make a sign that is very visible that explains who he is and why he is there. I think that most reasonable and prudent persons would be fine with that. There are those few fucktards that you can do nothing about, but we should adjust our lives based on those few.
(This post was edited by meanandugly on Feb 28, 2014, 7:10 PM)
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olderic
Feb 28, 2014, 2:19 PM
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No. Your dog is loyal and well behaved but it'd not fair to him/her. Are you sure he will have enough food and water, be warm enough or not too hot. If tied then what about wild animals? What about rockfall? That dog is your responsibility - yor baby. Treat it accordingly.
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marc801
Feb 28, 2014, 7:34 PM
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richardvg03 wrote: I have a service dog and I take him everywhere (usually that's what happens when you have a service dog, right?) but lately I've been debating the ethics of bringing my dog to the crag when I'm going to be doing a multi-pitch climb. I have no problem taking him to the local crag (or any crag) at all. He's obviously very well behaved BUT i'm not sure about what to do when I know I'm going to be doing a 5-7 pitch route and be gone for a while. Now, he would be perfectly fine tied to a tree with a bowl of water. It's not really the dog specifically that I'm worried about. He'd lay there all day if I gave him that command. It's more the idea of what other PEOPLE would do while I'm not there. Like I said, he's a very well trained dog and he was very expensive! Thoughts?
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cracklover
Feb 28, 2014, 11:49 PM
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marc801 wrote: richardvg03 wrote: I have a service dog and I take him everywhere (usually that's what happens when you have a service dog, right?) but lately I've been debating the ethics of bringing my dog to the crag when I'm going to be doing a multi-pitch climb. I have no problem taking him to the local crag (or any crag) at all. He's obviously very well behaved BUT i'm not sure about what to do when I know I'm going to be doing a 5-7 pitch route and be gone for a while. Now, he would be perfectly fine tied to a tree with a bowl of water. It's not really the dog specifically that I'm worried about. He'd lay there all day if I gave him that command. It's more the idea of what other PEOPLE would do while I'm not there. Like I said, he's a very well trained dog and he was very expensive! Thoughts? Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.
I've seen the sweetest, most well behaved, most friendly dogs, in just this situation, and it's not pretty. It's very stressful to the dog to watch its owner disappear high up on a cliff face, and then wait for hours in a strange place, not knowing if the owner is going to fall off the cliff or come back safe.
A good dog in such a position will still behave well, but they will be very sad and increasingly anxious all day long.
When you come down, all you see is a dog that is ecstatic to see you again. You never see the dog I see. The one who, all day while you're up there, is scared and miserable.
GO
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happiegrrrl
Mar 1, 2014, 12:27 AM
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There will always be"the dog discussion."
I have no intention of "getting into it" and debating the thing, but my Teddy, who passed away last summer, was my companion who came with me wherever I went, including at the cliffs.
He was an unofficial service dog, but I know that in my hear he was as real a service dog for me as it gets. He made it comfortable for me to be around people. Since everyone who knows me from climbing only knows me AFTER Teddy helped me, they don't know how different I am because of him. But anyway...
Teddy would do fine located with my pack in the best spot I could get for him. I would sometimes be gone for 4 hours. He was well known at the local crag. and people would stop and hang with him sometimes, and friendly so obviously that strangers would approach and pet him. He might occasionally get excited when I would come back from the climb, but that doesn't seem an unreasonable behavior.
Dogs who have grown up enough to know "proper behavior"and who don't have emotional traumas that cause them anxiety when left, have no problem being left for long amounts of time. With Teddy, having my pack near him seemed to show him that he was "supposed to be there."
There are always going to be people who "see things differently" and will provide all manner of reason and attempts to convince, shame, put the fear in a person about having their dog at the crag. If the place allows it - they are entitled to their opinion, but one is not required to entertain that opinion. As for dogs- again: Some dogs DON'T do well being left. But if a dog is okay with it- the dog DOES NOT MIND, and in most cases is HAPPY to be there. I know I watched Teddy from many a belay - sleeping like a lamb, enjoying a petting, casually watching people, looking up to me so high above, regally "being Teddy," just happy in the moment. Teddy would have absolutely preferred to be there while I climbed than left at home, and those who say I cannot "know" what Teddy thought don't know much about companion animals.
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meanandugly
Mar 1, 2014, 1:52 AM
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I have to agree with you happiegrrrl. This is not about dogs at the craig, but about an individual's service dog and how to best handle that situation.
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olderic
Mar 1, 2014, 5:56 PM
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I am definitely not against taking my dog to the crag, or the beach, the park or hiking - I do it all the time. I am against leaving her alone and constrained in an unfamiliar and potentially hostile place. One of the worst things I ever saw was a dog tied at the base of the Nears get attacked by bees while it's people were on the 2nd pitch.
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shockabuku
Mar 1, 2014, 6:18 PM
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marc801 wrote: richardvg03 wrote: I have a service dog and I take him everywhere (usually that's what happens when you have a service dog, right?) but lately I've been debating the ethics of bringing my dog to the crag when I'm going to be doing a multi-pitch climb. I have no problem taking him to the local crag (or any crag) at all. He's obviously very well behaved BUT i'm not sure about what to do when I know I'm going to be doing a 5-7 pitch route and be gone for a while. Now, he would be perfectly fine tied to a tree with a bowl of water. It's not really the dog specifically that I'm worried about. He'd lay there all day if I gave him that command. It's more the idea of what other PEOPLE would do while I'm not there. Like I said, he's a very well trained dog and he was very expensive! Thoughts? Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.
That's a stupid comparison; children are rarely trained as well as dogs. Also, you'd get arrested for leaving your kid tied to the tree, it's more likely to be stolen or abused, and generally can't ration its food and water as well.
Also, it is much more rare for people to eat children although I think the rate of eating dogs has probably dropped over time.
Where would the dog be stored if it wasn't at the crag? In the house in a kennel? I think I'd rather be tied to a tree in an out of the way place.
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skelldify
Mar 1, 2014, 6:28 PM
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Totally disagree. It all depends on the dog. Some dogs will be fine hanging out while the owner climbs, some won't be.
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lena_chita
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Mar 3, 2014, 1:20 AM
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marc801 wrote: richardvg03 wrote: I have a service dog and I take him everywhere (usually that's what happens when you have a service dog, right?) but lately I've been debating the ethics of bringing my dog to the crag when I'm going to be doing a multi-pitch climb. I have no problem taking him to the local crag (or any crag) at all. He's obviously very well behaved BUT i'm not sure about what to do when I know I'm going to be doing a 5-7 pitch route and be gone for a while. Now, he would be perfectly fine tied to a tree with a bowl of water. It's not really the dog specifically that I'm worried about. He'd lay there all day if I gave him that command. It's more the idea of what other PEOPLE would do while I'm not there. Like I said, he's a very well trained dog and he was very expensive! Thoughts? Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.
With all respect, children and dogs are NOT equivalent in their needs, even though dogs are, absolutely, members of people's families.
You let the dog sleep on the pallet on the floor (or even in a doghouse outside). You let the dog stay at home alone all day, even a young dog. You let the dog eat out of the bowl on the floor. You don't get upset when the dog laps up water from a creek.
None of those would be appropriate for children.
The answer to this question will depend on the dog in question, and the dog's temperament. Some dogs get anxious and sad if left alone. Others don't. For any dog whose owner works away from home during the day, this is really no different, fundamentally, than being left alone while the owner goes to work, as long as the dog is comfortable in the place where she is left to wait.
One of my regular climbing partners has a dog who, without being restrained, will happily curl up and lay quietly in an out-of-the-way place all day. She doesn't want food, or drink. She will play if you engage her, but will not demand attention if you don't. She is just that chill, despite being only 3 years old, and she has been that way since she was a puppy.
The dog in question being a service dog, I am guessing that it is a dog that is temperamentally suited to being O.K. with staying in one place for half a day. And you can definitely find a place that is safe from rockfall and sheltered from sun. You can maybe compromise of the leash rule by having her leashed to a lightweight stake that could be pulled out without much effort if the dog is threatened by an unlikely wild animal. A trained service dog will not leave, even without a leash.
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richardvg03
Mar 3, 2014, 6:13 AM
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marc801 wrote: Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable.
I'm not even going to address how ridiculously stupid this sounds. YOU are what is wrong with today's society.
cracklover wrote: I've seen the sweetest, most well behaved, most friendly dogs, in just this situation, and it's not pretty. It's very stressful to the dog to watch its owner disappear high up on a cliff face, and then wait for hours in a strange place, not knowing if the owner is going to fall off the cliff or come back safe. A good dog in such a position will still behave well, but they will be very sad and increasingly anxious all day long.
I think you missed the part where I have a fifteen thousand dollar dog that is highly trained. He does not get sad and lonely. I can put him in the down position for hours and hours and he will not move. He's not a pet... he is a working dog.
To the rest of you who are not completely apeshit stupid and understand what a dog is... Thank you for your responses. I think my dog will be just fine but I wanted to run it across the community first.
(This post was edited by richardvg03 on Mar 3, 2014, 6:14 AM)
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meanandugly
Mar 3, 2014, 10:59 AM
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^
Good looking pup
Don't be too frustrated with those who have no idea with the difference between a pet and a service dog. I have 2 dogs, both are running (or all round) partners, they and I work hard on their training and one will come ice climbing with me in certain locations, but they are not craig dogs and I don't want them to be. I have nothing against craig dogs if they are well behaved, but there are those who go ape shit about them no matter what, they just failed to realize that this was not a post about craig dogs.
ps. as for the similarity between dog and children, they are completely different...I like dogs.
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blueeyedclimber
Mar 3, 2014, 1:17 PM
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richardvg03 wrote: marc801 wrote: Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable. I'm not even going to address how ridiculously stupid this sounds. YOU are what is wrong with today's society.
That was a little harsh. Marc is NOT what's wrong with today's society. He just has an opinion and voiced it. Nothing wrong with that.
In reply to: cracklover wrote: I've seen the sweetest, most well behaved, most friendly dogs, in just this situation, and it's not pretty. It's very stressful to the dog to watch its owner disappear high up on a cliff face, and then wait for hours in a strange place, not knowing if the owner is going to fall off the cliff or come back safe. A good dog in such a position will still behave well, but they will be very sad and increasingly anxious all day long. I think you missed the part where I have a fifteen thousand dollar dog that is highly trained. He does not get sad and lonely. I can put him in the down position for hours and hours and he will not move. He's not a pet... he is a working dog.
Yes, there is a big difference between a pet and a working dog. If you don't mind me asking, what is his service?
In reply to: To the rest of you who are not completely apeshit stupid and understand what a dog is... Thank you for your responses. I think my dog will be just fine but I wanted to run it across the community first.
Settle down. The topic of crag dogs has come up so often that people have their own opinions and experiences with them. If you bring up climbing and dogs, you would have to know that you would get some of that.
Personally, I love dogs and love seeing them when climbing but it totally depends on the dog (and the owner). The comparison to children was off base but if you had to compare them, think about the children you have come across. Some are very well behaved and some aren't. Some parents are great, some aren't. Some parents are good who have very well behaved children but they have their misbehaving moments. C'est la vie.
It all depends.
In reply to:
Good looking dog.
Josh
(This post was edited by blueeyedclimber on Mar 3, 2014, 1:18 PM)
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csproul
Mar 3, 2014, 3:10 PM
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skelldify wrote: Totally disagree. It all depends on the dog. Some dogs will be fine hanging out while the owner climbs, some won't be.
A service dog, however, is probably a whole different situation than your average dog.
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csproul
Mar 3, 2014, 3:13 PM
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Where did you get your service dog from...perhaps the trainers might have an opinion on leaving your dog while you climb?
You clearly did not get the answer here that you were looking for.
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cracklover
Mar 3, 2014, 5:32 PM
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richardvg03 wrote: marc801 wrote: Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable. I'm not even going to address how ridiculously stupid this sounds. YOU are what is wrong with today's society. cracklover wrote: I've seen the sweetest, most well behaved, most friendly dogs, in just this situation, and it's not pretty. It's very stressful to the dog to watch its owner disappear high up on a cliff face, and then wait for hours in a strange place, not knowing if the owner is going to fall off the cliff or come back safe. A good dog in such a position will still behave well, but they will be very sad and increasingly anxious all day long. I think you missed the part where I have a fifteen thousand dollar dog that is highly trained. He does not get sad and lonely. I can put him in the down position for hours and hours and he will not move. He's not a pet... he is a working dog.
And I think you missed the part where I said the most well-behaved dog can be under duress watching his owner disappear up a cliff. If you really want the answer to your question, have a friend (who the dog does not know well) observe the dog while you go do a multi-pitch climb, and report back to you. You simply cannot know what you don't know, and many dog owners are oblivious to what's happening with their dogs when they're not there. Some dogs are absolute saints around their owners, and the owner never realizes that when that connection is broken, the dog gets very anxious.
But it looks more like you just wanted people to confirm the opinion you hold already. Next time you need validation, maybe you should look to your dog, rather than other people who have their own experiences and can share *different* opinions from yours.
GO
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meanandugly
Mar 3, 2014, 6:01 PM
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^
Love it.
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csproul
Mar 3, 2014, 6:17 PM
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Is the service dog for you (used by you) or are you training it?
(This post was edited by csproul on Mar 3, 2014, 6:18 PM)
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richardvg03
Mar 3, 2014, 7:55 PM
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csproul wrote: Is the service dog for you (used by you) or are you training it?
He's mine…hence the signature:
:
:
V
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csproul
Mar 3, 2014, 8:07 PM
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richardvg03 wrote: csproul wrote: Is the service dog for you (used by you) or are you training it? He's mine…hence the signature: : : V
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marc801
Mar 3, 2014, 8:07 PM
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richardvg03 wrote: marc801 wrote: Substitute "child" for "dog" in what you wrote above and see if it still makes sense and seems reasonable. I'm not even going to address how ridiculously stupid this sounds. YOU are what is wrong with today's society.
The thing is you're focused entirely on how the dog and other climbers might react. What about the things that can happen to the dog while it's tied to a tree for hours?
Previously mentioned: rockfall, stinging insects, water running out or tipped over, same for food. What about other animals and how they might react to your dog? Have you ever seen what a raccoon or skunk can do to an animal's face? Swarm of yellow jackets from the unseen nest at the base of the tree that your dog just laid down on?
My point of the child analogy was that just like a child, your dog has limited response options to deal with stuff. In fact, as a service dog, those options are even less than those available to pet animals.
One other suggestion: when you go to a discussion forum and ask a question, it's probably not a good idea to get all butthurt when you don't get the answers you want or expect.
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csproul
Mar 3, 2014, 8:11 PM
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Especially important things to keep in mind when talking about a $15000 well-trained dog who would be much more difficult to replace than your average pet (not that I'm saying a pet is easy to replace).
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richardvg03
Mar 3, 2014, 8:15 PM
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marc801 wrote: The thing is you're focused entirely on how the dog and other climbers might react. What about the things that can happen to the dog while it's tied to a tree for hours? Previously mentioned: rockfall, stinging insects, water running out or tipped over, same for food. What about other animals and how they might react to your dog? Have you ever seen what a raccoon or skunk can do to an animal's face? Swarm of yellow jackets from the unseen nest at the base of the tree that your dog just laid down on?
I didn't think about that… or the apocalypse… or zombies… dammit! What if zombies show up?! What the F**K is my dog going to do?! 
marc801 wrote: One other suggestion: when you go to a discussion forum and ask a question, it's probably not a good idea to get all butthurt when you don't get the answers you want or expect.
(Hug) Don't misinterpret my implying that you're an idiot as me being butthurt and don't take me implying that you're an idiot, personally. You stated your opinion… then I stated my opinion about your opinion. Like you said… we're all entitled to our opinions. :) God bless the USA (or this forum??)
Anyway, You do bring up good points about other denominators. Usually… not always… but usually wild animals tend to leave dogs alone. Now… zombies… ya zombies don't give a F**K! :)
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