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Responsibility and Liability?
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johnnyrig


Apr 20, 2014, 10:01 PM
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Responsibility and Liability?
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A kid (20yr old) at work wanted to try climbing with me, so i took him and his girlfriend. Now they,re hooked, and he asked me to teach him and sell him some gear or help him find some cheap, suitable for toproping.

He-s a quick study, but young and maybe a little reckless yet. He-d probably make a pretty good climber, but truly doesnt know anything about it.

What would YOU do?


lena_chita
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Apr 21, 2014, 8:05 AM
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Re: [johnnyrig] Responsibility and Liability? [In reply to]
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Depends on how well you know him, how good a friend he is, how much you like him and want to spend time with him.

If he is just an acquaintance/co-worker, and you are not interested in him as a regular climbing partner, I would point him to the local gym and offer to climb with him at the gym occasionally.

If he is your good friend, and you have the time and inclination to teach him, then you are the only person who can make a judgement about whether you are qualified to teach, and whether you would be sued by this person if something goes wrong.


marc801


Apr 21, 2014, 10:57 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Responsibility and Liability? [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
...and whether you would be sued by this person if something goes wrong.
Or sued by his loved ones. Alas, I've seen that happen more than once.


lena_chita
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Apr 21, 2014, 11:59 AM
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Re: [marc801] Responsibility and Liability? [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
...and whether you would be sued by this person if something goes wrong.
Or sued by his loved ones. Alas, I've seen that happen more than once.

Sure, could happen. I have not seen/heard of it involving any people that I personally know, however distantly or casually, but it can happen.

Still, the majority of teaching in the climbing community has traditionally happened by knowledge being passed on by more experienced climbers who did not possess any accreditation or liability insurance.

Maybe it means that we are looking for an explosion of lawsuits waiting to happen as the explosion in climbing numbers is followed by explosion in accidents, and eventually the wave rolls down the line into the courtrooms.


marc801


Apr 21, 2014, 12:05 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
Still, the majority of teaching in the climbing community has traditionally happened by knowledge being passed on by more experienced climbers who did not possess any accreditation or liability insurance.
Exactly how I learned and how I taught others.

lena_chita wrote:
Maybe it means that we are looking for an explosion of lawsuits waiting to happen as the explosion in climbing numbers is followed by explosion in accidents, and eventually the wave rolls down the line into the courtrooms.
I don't think we'll see either. But if the OP is concerned about liability - as he seems to be based on the subject line he created - it's just something he should be aware of.


majid_sabet


Apr 22, 2014, 9:52 AM
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Re: [johnnyrig] Responsibility and Liability? [In reply to]
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as long as you are not charging him for lessons or instructions then you don't have any major liabilities to worry since climbing already a dangerous game and attorneys and judges already aware of it however, once you charge for instruction then game becomes different and now you fall in to all sorts of issues including lawsuits .


skelldify


Apr 22, 2014, 11:15 AM
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Re: [johnnyrig] Responsibility and Liability? [In reply to]
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This is one of the MANY reasons I'm hesitant to take beginners on climbing trips with me. If a beginner asks to go climbing with me, I always tell them they need to do a couple sessions at the gym with me first, to get the hang of the basics. I've had TWO people ever me up on this offer. One of them became my wife; the other was one of my wife's friends, and she turned out to be one of our best partners.

It's not that I'm trying to get out of mentoring someone, but I use this as a test to see if they're actually interested in learning how to climb before I spend a season (or more) mentoring them.

In your case, it sounds like you're (understandably) not wanting to spend this much time with him. He probably doesn't understand how large of a commitment it is to teach someone how to be a good climber. I'd nicely explain this to him, then have him to take some lessons at the gym, or set him up with a trustworthy climber who is willing to train him. Maybe in a year or two you'll have a new partner!


(This post was edited by skelldify on Apr 22, 2014, 11:37 AM)


marc801


Apr 22, 2014, 11:51 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Responsibility and Liability? [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
as long as you are not charging him for lessons or instructions then you don't have any major liabilities to worry since climbing already a dangerous game and attorneys and judges already aware of it however, once you charge for instruction then game becomes different and now you fall in to all sorts of issues including lawsuits .

Totally, absolutely, 100% incorrect.

In the US, anyone can sue anyone else for almost anything. It has nothing to do if someone is or is not paying for a service.

Circa 2001:
In reply to:
Lindsey Enloe had met Stephen Stinson and had asked her out on a date. Stinson took Enloe climbing saying he had been climbing for 12 years. Allegedly Stinson had not been truthful about his climbing experience or the fact that he was married. The anchor Stinson set failed and Enloe fell, out of love, and into a hospital. Enloe then sued Stinson for the injuries she incurred in the fall.

The case garnered national attention. The Wall Street Journal said “We wonder how many dates she’ll get now.”

The Intermountain Commercial Salt Lake Times Record listed the case as settled for $65,000 sometime in August of 2002.
[From: http://recreation-law.com/...k-climbing-with-him/ ]


shimanilami


Apr 22, 2014, 1:25 PM
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Re: [johnnyrig] Responsibility and Liability? [In reply to]
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Do you want to climb with him or don't you? Answer that and the rest will fall into place.


roninthorne


Apr 22, 2014, 3:20 PM
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Re: [johnnyrig] Responsibility and Liability? [In reply to]
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Tell him that you'll teach and help him, but explain that it would be far cheaper to pay someone to kill him and his family, or to do it yourself, than to pay his survivors and a lawyer in the event of a lawsuit.

Students always laughed when I told them that... until they noticed I wasn't laughing.


shockabuku


Apr 22, 2014, 7:03 PM
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Sounds like you decided to take him once already.

Me, if I was okay with taking him once, I already made my decision unless something occurred to put me off.


johnnyrig


Apr 22, 2014, 9:59 PM
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I did take him climbing, and got hold of some entry-level gear for toproping for him. Looks like I'll go ahead and show him what I know, emphasis on safety items. And I'm trying to get him on sites like this and in the local gym to meet other people.
Tried to scare him off by telling him it could kill him and some of the more recent accidents, so he's well aware of some of the risks. It's going to be up to him to decide what kind of instruction he wants to get, though he passed the belay test at the gym anyway, before I took him climbing, so there you have it. Not my fault if he drops his chick.

I asked in such a manner, not really thinking of liability per se, but probably due to lack of sleep what with new babies, work, and a dying aunt in the hospital. Life goes on, sometimes we get to have a little fun in between, eh?


marc801


Apr 23, 2014, 12:02 AM
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Re: [johnnyrig] Responsibility and Liability? [In reply to]
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johnnyrig wrote:
I asked in such a manner, not really thinking of liability per se, ...
Well, the word is 1/3 of your subject line.....
Smile


Partner cracklover


Apr 24, 2014, 12:24 PM
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Re: [johnnyrig] Responsibility and Liability? [In reply to]
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johnnyrig wrote:
I did take him climbing, and got hold of some entry-level gear for toproping for him. Looks like I'll go ahead and show him what I know, emphasis on safety items. And I'm trying to get him on sites like this and in the local gym to meet other people.
Tried to scare him off by telling him it could kill him and some of the more recent accidents, so he's well aware of some of the risks. It's going to be up to him to decide what kind of instruction he wants to get, though he passed the belay test at the gym anyway, before I took him climbing, so there you have it. Not my fault if he drops his chick.

I asked in such a manner, not really thinking of liability per se, but probably due to lack of sleep what with new babies, work, and a dying aunt in the hospital. Life goes on, sometimes we get to have a little fun in between, eh?

You ask what we'd do in your place, and I'll answer you.

If I had "new babies" (twins?), work, and a dying aunt in the hospital, and I thought the guy was a little reckless, and I was suffering from lack of sleep and worried about liability, and maybe I wasn't super-experienced myself (as it sounds like might be the case with you), the answer would be: HELL NO!

You've got plenty enough on your mind, and as you said, best you focus on getting a little fun from climbing in the little free time you have. No need to engage in the dubious activity of taking your sleep-deprived and distracted self and trying to teach some slightly reckless gung-ho n00b how to climb outside. Better to let use the little bit of focus you have on the climbing you know how to do, for yourself and your existing partners, and leave it at that.

GO


roninthorne


Apr 25, 2014, 8:49 AM
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Laugh I live for the single stars


sungam


May 25, 2014, 2:40 AM
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roninthorne wrote:
Laugh I live for the single stars
I want you to know that I sat in thought for around 12 seconds, deliberating on how to correctly show my appreciation for this post.


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