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Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch
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Partner epoch
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Jul 3, 2008, 9:05 AM
Post #26 of 35 (914 views)
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Re: [zoltank] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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zoltank wrote:
joeforte wrote:
Dude, he's not talking about backing up and autoblocker! The hauling system he pictured is not set up in autoblock mode. I think you could actually use a standard ATC in place of the reverso... Any thoughts?

Dude, I know! If you read back, when I brought up just using the reverso in autoblock mode he said a prussik should be used then as well.

Duhd. Re-read the statement:
jeremy11 wrote:
but much more friction in autoblock mode! the only extra part is a prussik loop, which you SHOULD always have at all times.

Broken down it reads
    An auto-locker increases friction in the system compared to the pictured system; so why, therefore, would anyone want to make thier job harder!

    For the pictured system the only extra thing one would need for it, above and beyond a tube style belay device, would be a prusick loop. One which you should have with you at all times.
That's how I read it.


majid_sabet


Jul 3, 2008, 9:22 AM
Post #27 of 35 (908 views)
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Re: [epoch] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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These sort of hitchs in particular prusik loop must be manually activated to arrest a load. If you do not have your hands on the loop or if you forget to activate the locking while your load is falling, the fast moving rope will burn the loop and your load (hope not a climber) will end up at the base.


Partner epoch
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Jul 3, 2008, 9:50 AM
Post #28 of 35 (898 views)
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Re: [majid_sabet] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
These sort of hitchs in particular prusik loop must be manually activated to arrest a load. If you do not have your hands on the loop or if you forget to activate the locking while your load is falling, the fast moving rope will burn the loop and your load (hope not a climber) will end up at the base.
here's captian Majid to save the day...


Actually, if using the setup as depicted in the picture (we're way off topic now) and are using for a haul, the friction knot should self-set. At least that is what happens every time I use a setup like that.

Would I belay someone seconding (climbing with a risk of a dynamic load) with the pictured method, where the rate of ascent isn't directly controlled by my manipulation of the system (hauling)? Hell no. Period. But if i needed to haul, then this system works better than your post alludes to.


jeremy11


Jul 3, 2008, 3:19 PM
Post #29 of 35 (874 views)
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Re: [epoch] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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epoch wrote:
zoltank wrote:
joeforte wrote:
Dude, he's not talking about backing up and autoblocker! The hauling system he pictured is not set up in autoblock mode. I think you could actually use a standard ATC in place of the reverso... Any thoughts?

Dude, I know! If you read back, when I brought up just using the reverso in autoblock mode he said a prussik should be used then as well.

Duhd. Re-read the statement:
jeremy11 wrote:
but much more friction in autoblock mode! the only extra part is a prussik loop, which you SHOULD always have at all times.

Broken down it reads
    An auto-locker increases friction in the system compared to the pictured system; so why, therefore, would anyone want to make thier job harder!

    For the pictured system the only extra thing one would need for it, above and beyond a tube style belay device, would be a prusick loop. One which you should have with you at all times.
That's how I read it.

correct. tube style belay plate + prussik turned into prussik minding pulley. less friction than autoblocking or garda/C & F. In fact, High Angle Rescue guys use tandem prussik belays similar to this (with mariner knot for releasing the prussiks under load, and with a beefy prussik minding pulley) for belaying rescue sized loads.


majid_sabet


Jul 3, 2008, 4:15 PM
Post #30 of 35 (865 views)
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Re: [jeremy11] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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jeremy11 wrote:
epoch wrote:
zoltank wrote:
joeforte wrote:
Dude, he's not talking about backing up and autoblocker! The hauling system he pictured is not set up in autoblock mode. I think you could actually use a standard ATC in place of the reverso... Any thoughts?

Dude, I know! If you read back, when I brought up just using the reverso in autoblock mode he said a prussik should be used then as well.

Duhd. Re-read the statement:
jeremy11 wrote:
but much more friction in autoblock mode! the only extra part is a prussik loop, which you SHOULD always have at all times.

Broken down it reads
    An auto-locker increases friction in the system compared to the pictured system; so why, therefore, would anyone want to make thier job harder!

    For the pictured system the only extra thing one would need for it, above and beyond a tube style belay device, would be a prusick loop. One which you should have with you at all times.
That's how I read it.

correct. tube style belay plate + prussik turned into prussik minding pulley. less friction than autoblocking or garda/C & F. In fact, High Angle Rescue guys use tandem prussik belays similar to this (with mariner knot for releasing the prussiks under load, and with a beefy prussik minding pulley) for belaying rescue sized loads.

incorrect
may be 20 years they used mariner knot in rescue but today,they use a different system called" load release hitch aka RLH which is combination of munter and three warps of 8mm rope in between two locking biners. RLH is pretty standard in mountain rescue operation in north America.


binrat


Jul 4, 2008, 6:59 AM
Post #31 of 35 (846 views)
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Re: [majid_sabet] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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M.S.
It is still used by some informed outfits.

C & F knot - personally don't like it and would not use it for live loads.

binrat


snoboy


Sep 20, 2009, 10:22 PM
Post #32 of 35 (742 views)
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Registered: Jul 19, 2004
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Re: [binrat] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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I know this an an oldthread to bump, but I am intersted in more info on this C + F hitch... I've never heard of it before, and would like to know more about it's properties.

Does anybody know what it (C+F) stands for?

Is there any sources that have more info? Particularly, I am interested in failure modes, and slip or breaking strength...


binrat


Sep 21, 2009, 6:05 AM
Post #33 of 35 (695 views)
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Re: [snoboy] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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The C & F knot was developed by Rob Chisnell and I forget the other guys name Fulton? It can be found in the ORCA manual which is getting hard to find. The manula is a good read as well, I think available through MEC.

Maybe Swag has more info on it.

binrat


rockklimber


Jul 7, 2014, 11:27 PM
Post #34 of 35 (272 views)
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Re: [swaghole] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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For those of you who actually choose to use the C & F hitch for hauling, the pictures posted do NOT show the hitch correctly. In the configuration shown in the pictures this incorrect hitch will fail. The correct hitch will have the two hanging tails inside the gate of the horizontal carabiner. This keeps the hitch from flipping and therefore failing. To show this try the hitch first without the carabiner and weight it until it fails. Then try it in the configuration shown in the pictures and weight it while seeing if you can move the horizontal carabiner. The try it in the configuration that I suggest. Note: this might take more force than you think to make it fail.


(This post was edited by rockklimber on Jul 7, 2014, 11:30 PM)


Partner rgold


Jul 9, 2014, 10:06 PM
Post #35 of 35 (190 views)
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Re: [Lazlo] Garda Hitch aka Alpine Clutch [In reply to]
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Lazlo wrote:
What are some quality uses that anyone has found for the Garda?

I use the Garda to tie down nuts that might otherwise lift. I like it because you can do the whole set-up fast one-handed and immediately get good tension.

Place the nut and put two biners on it---the Garda will go here. Place the upward directional and run a thin sling from it to the top nut. Feed the end of the sling through both biners, wrap underneath, click the loop through the nearest biner and tug. (You might have to push the sling turns on the carabiner up to the vertical spine to get the "hitch" to form properly.) This entire operation is one-handed.

Depending on the stance and my level of fatigue, I usually then put an overhand knot through the Garda carabiners with the loop in order to keep the the tension from releasing, but if I'm pumped I'll just clip the loop of sling exiting from the Garda.

If worried about the potential decrease in strength this loop will experience, it is easy to thread a runner through the two top Garda biners and clip that. Thread the runner behind the hold-down sling so it can't ride up on the two gates of the Garda biners.


(This post was edited by rgold on Jul 9, 2014, 10:26 PM)

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