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shockabuku
Nov 26, 2014, 3:22 AM
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+1
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jacques
Jan 2, 2015, 2:50 PM
Post #27 of 43
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cracklover wrote: It's kind of a weird question the way you ask it - Should climbers learn to place hexes before they learn to place cams. As though placing hexes might, somehow, help you learn to place cams. So the answer to that question is no. There is nothing about placing a hex that will help you place cams.
I think it is a big mistake to ignore the evolution of the protection. There is many type of protection that we used in the pass, some strange and some attractive. The only one who did the years test are the one which are great protection. The hex is one of them.
today, asking why we should change our cam for an other device is not very evident. In the pass, many accident happen with stopper and people had look for better protection. The evolution of the protection is good to know the limit of the protection that we used and the diversity to use the protection in all aspect of safety. As a trad climber, I admit that, in some case, nothing work but a bolt. A perception that change all the common opinion on the distinction between trad and sport.
Why should we used hex more than a cam? If you can find an answer, it is because you know one limit of the cam. There is situation where hexes are better than cam. it can help you to avoid to use some placement that can be obvious, but certainly not boomer.
The evolution of cam began with rock stuck in crack, to bolt from bolt, to stopper, hexes, tricams...and if you place two tricam back to back...it is nothing else than a cam.
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healyje
Jan 4, 2015, 3:07 AM
Post #28 of 43
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Still leading reasonably hard trad after forty years. I haven't carried a tri-cam or a hex in a couple of decades except for some rare and very specific known placements. What I do carry is a double set of HB (now DMM) Offsets.
Bottom line is I'll take a good passive placement over a cam every single time.
Also keep in mind that cams don't obviate the need for appropriate slinging.
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KevinHecka
Feb 24, 2015, 5:48 AM
Post #29 of 43
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Originally I got Hexes because Friends were the only cam around and they were pricey and the Hexes picked up those larger sizes w/o denting my wallet. Time moved on and as my rack grew I got cams; but I never tossed away my Hexes.
I think it's a wise choice to be able to pro with just about anything if necessary. Natural pro like slinging flakes or Hero-looping jugs and in as much as what Skinner brought back from his initial trip to Poland was using knots as nuts if it was all you had.
Should a new climber hustle out and get a set of hexes if he doesn't have to? No. But get your Rock Craft to a point that you can rap off with a Swiss Rappel and pro yourself with what ever's available. Right?
;) K>
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notapplicable
Feb 25, 2015, 5:26 AM
Post #30 of 43
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At most crags, the utility of hexes decreases as the difficulty of the climbing increases.
The more experienced a climber becomes, the less likely they are to carry hexes on any given route.
The harder you climb, relative to your own abilities, the less likely you are to carry hexes. I don't know a single experienced climber doing routes near their physical limit who carries them. I know several who carry them that climb three grades below their limit and rarely fall.
Long story short, hexes may be useful if you are relatively inexperienced and/or climbing moderates that are well below your physical limit. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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jacques
Mar 2, 2015, 7:09 PM
Post #31 of 43
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notapplicable wrote: The more experienced a climber becomes, the less likely they are to carry hexes on any given route.
I use a number three friends because it is easier to plug than an hex. An hex need more attention to place because of the rope drag and limits of the pro. Although the safety of a well place hex will be greater than those of a friend in terms of surface.
I think that it is a reason why we have so much accident, people are too experienced to know the basic of protecting a pitch they just have to hang on a bolt or a cam because it is the same as sport...in their head...to do trad.
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danabart
Mar 21, 2015, 10:11 AM
Post #32 of 43
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I haven't placed a hex since 1977. Since that time, I've climbed literally 1000s of routes in the US, Canada, and Europe and never - not once - did I stop and think, "I wish I had hex."
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jacques
Mar 23, 2015, 7:44 PM
Post #33 of 43
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danabart wrote: - not once - did I stop and think, "I wish I had hex."
I wish I had money
to buy a cam
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OneBadStud
Apr 9, 2015, 2:19 AM
Post #34 of 43
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I disagree with all this anti-hex talk. They're cheap (have you ever bailed on a cam?), lightweight and bomber. They're perfect for long alpine routes.
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notapplicable
Apr 11, 2015, 3:20 PM
Post #35 of 43
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OneBadStud wrote: I disagree with all this anti-hex talk. They're cheap (have you ever bailed on a cam?), lightweight and bomber. They're perfect for long alpine routes.
While what you say is true, it in no way contradicts or refutes my statements. If anything, the exception proves the rule.
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OneBadStud
Apr 11, 2015, 7:48 PM
Post #36 of 43
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There's obvious utility in learning to place hexes before cams when learning, but they're usefulness is forgotten when progress peaks and jumps from 5.5 to 5.9. That's too bad because cams are often used where a good nut placement would do and a nut has no moving parts, doesn't have trigger issues, doesn't "walk", etc. When my climbing level plateau's I should remind myself to bring the foundations with me from the previous level.
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graniteboy
Jul 26, 2015, 8:06 PM
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The OP asks the question as though learning to place cams and learning to place hexes is somehow a mutually exclusive proposition. I teach students the strengths and weaknesses and methods of placement on the same day. And Although we all mostly will place cams instead of hexes most of the time because they're usually a better protection option, hexes are in fact sometimes a better, safer protection form on alpine routes or anywhere the rock has loose blocks. Cams multiply the downward force of a fall into an outward force that is greater than the downward force applied to begin with, and can blow loose blocks out and get you killed. Passive devices (hexes) don't work that way, and as such are often a safer option in loose or blocky environments. And hexes weigh much, much less than an equal size cam, especially in the larger sizes, so supplementing your cam rack with a few hexes can save you some weight. Lastly, when you have to do a series of rappels on a remote route, which would you rather leave behind? a pair of ten dollar hexes, or a pair of 75 dollar cams? To pretend that only one of these tools should be used exclusively just shows people's lack of knowledge and experience in a wide variety of environments. I'm seeing a lot of lack of experience in these posts. Especially the ones who say "I've climbed X number of routes and never place hexes anymore, blah blah blah". They don't have any clue what they're talking about. There are plenty of dead people from cams blowing out a loose block and causing system failure. Back when cams first came out, there was an old kiwi guy called Dennis who used to hang out in the Valley. His was the first death I heard of due to cams causing an expando situation; he placed a couple cams under a boulder and lowered off, unleashing the boulder down on top of himself. fatal. The have been many, many other accidents and fatalities due to cams expanding things and either ripping out or causing rockfall that injured someone. So, kiddies, learn how to use all the tools at your disposal. But mostly, learn how to use the most important tool; judgement.
(This post was edited by graniteboy on Jul 26, 2015, 8:18 PM)
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fluffybynomeans
Jul 28, 2015, 6:11 PM
Post #38 of 43
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HI Tom! Hello from California...West Virginia's Seneca Rock was one of my learning starts to trad.
I agree that you can tell the experienced climber when he wears the hexes. Hexes are by far more useful and safer than stopper nuts and cams. I use them in Yosemite as much as i use them on the East Coast. They are larger than nuts, but not necessarily heavy. They can be bulky and sometimes can get in the way when in tight places or on thin walls, but are by far safer than any other piece of gear you can carry. The two falls i have taken in my 20 years as a climber have been on hexes and have not ripped out. Try falling on a tri-cam and you won't get it back!
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stevecurtis
Jul 29, 2015, 8:40 PM
Post #39 of 43
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Go light and simple. Hexes are more of a specialty item than cams. Thus, one almost always needs to bring cams if he brings hexes. I never carry them unless i know the route requires one--very uncommon.
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fluffybynomeans
Jul 30, 2015, 2:18 PM
Post #40 of 43
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I have to agree with you, but at the same time when larger pieces of gear are needed for a route hexes are by far lighter than monster cams! I guess i just like to be over prepared even when i know the route unless the approach is more than a few miles.
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fluffybynomeans
Jul 30, 2015, 3:14 PM
Post #41 of 43
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graniteboy wrote: The OP asks the question as though learning to place cams and learning to place hexes is somehow a mutually exclusive proposition. I teach students the strengths and weaknesses and methods of placement on the same day. And Although we all mostly will place cams instead of hexes most of the time because they're usually a better protection option, hexes are in fact sometimes a better, safer protection form on alpine routes or anywhere the rock has loose blocks. Cams multiply the downward force of a fall into an outward force that is greater than the downward force applied to begin with, and can blow loose blocks out and get you killed. Passive devices (hexes) don't work that way, and as such are often a safer option in loose or blocky environments. And hexes weigh much, much less than an equal size cam, especially in the larger sizes, so supplementing your cam rack with a few hexes can save you some weight. Lastly, when you have to do a series of rappels on a remote route, which would you rather leave behind? a pair of ten dollar hexes, or a pair of 75 dollar cams? To pretend that only one of these tools should be used exclusively just shows people's lack of knowledge and experience in a wide variety of environments. I'm seeing a lot of lack of experience in these posts. Especially the ones who say "I've climbed X number of routes and never place hexes anymore, blah blah blah". They don't have any clue what they're talking about. There are plenty of dead people from cams blowing out a loose block and causing system failure. Back when cams first came out, there was an old kiwi guy called Dennis who used to hang out in the Valley. His was the first death I heard of due to cams causing an expando situation; he placed a couple cams under a boulder and lowered off, unleashing the boulder down on top of himself. fatal. The have been many, many other accidents and fatalities due to cams expanding things and either ripping out or causing rockfall that injured someone. So, kiddies, learn how to use all the tools at your disposal. But mostly, learn how to use the most important tool; judgement.
The most intelligent post yet...i hear ya brother!
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billcoe_
Jul 29, 2016, 3:25 PM
Post #42 of 43
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Not particularly necessary to learn hexes at all but it's never a bad idea to learn everything you can. It's also somewhat depends on where you climb. Straight sided basalt, Indian Creek sandstone and most granite cracks love cams much more than hexes. Hexes are all but worthless, expecially once you start pushing your limits and need a faster placement. Yet there are times where hexes work much better than cams, locations and routes where the cracks often open up in the back. Chucking a hex into that kind of placement is much more secure than a cam ever could be. If you look around at folks racks on the routes you want to do, that's usually the first tip off.
In reply to: They're perfect for long alpine routes.
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rockie
Feb 2, 2024, 5:29 AM
Post #43 of 43
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Don't think so. I learned with Squamosh rock guides it was cams and nuts, mine were bomber
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