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newbieclimber
Nov 25, 2001, 3:57 AM
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assuming your pro will withstand up to 2000 lbs of force, what is the correct spacing of pro on a 165 ft. pitch so that it will prevent you from decking in case you fall?
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rrrADAM
Nov 25, 2001, 4:11 AM
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Are you talking about yanking it out ??? The rope will disipate much of that force, it's dynamic, thus the force applied to the pro is lessened.
Good practice is to place pro early and often.
rrrADAM
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atg200
Nov 25, 2001, 4:23 AM
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totally depends on rock type and topology. people running it out on gunks moderates makes me cringe-tons of corners and ledges to hit. on the other hand, if you try to place every 5 feet at indian creek you'll rn out of cams and pump yourself out.
the rule of thumb is to place often down low, and space it out as you go higher(more rope out means lower fall factor). up high i place every 10-12 feet or so, but that of course is dependent on the fall being clean and the gear being bomber. down low i place every bodylength.
andrew
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dustinap
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Nov 25, 2001, 5:21 AM
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On a 165 foot pitch my main climbing partner who leads normally places 6-9 pieces on climbs under 5.9 I've noticed,he's a really good climber. He normally makes a 4 piece anchor all with locking biner's and typically uses a 24 inch sling on every piece. He racks some 48 inchers though.
Myself, since I'm new, I led a 5.7 and placed about 8 pieces on it, and wasn't to comfortable, but I had a lack of gear at this time. This pitch went to the VERY last inch of a 60M rope, really glad I didn't fall on the last move.
I would say for someone new, even 16 pieces a pitch may not be to much, as you get comfortable in your ability to climb and place pro, you'll be leading Serenity Crack with 6 pieces a pitch.
It's all your comfort level and how much you can commit, really. I've seldomly lead since everyone I clmib with is better and want to do harder stuff.
This up comming season I am going to start leading alot hopefully.
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newbieclimber
Nov 25, 2001, 6:26 PM
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rradam, can you explain your theory that the rope will disipate much of the force because it's dynamic?
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atg200
Nov 25, 2001, 7:13 PM
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newbieclimber, its a fact, not a theory. the stretching of the dynamic rope absorbs a great deal of the force generated in a fall. this is good, otherwise a fall of any length you take would rip your spine in half. for instance, a big fall on a static line would certainly kill you and would break your carabiners as well.
petzl has a great explanation of fall factors on their website-check it out.
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talons05
Nov 25, 2001, 9:51 PM
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It all depends on rock type, difficulty of climb, etc. etc. etc. I usually place about every body length or just a little less. Lots of people I know don't use so much pro.
AW
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newbieclimber
Nov 26, 2001, 6:53 AM
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it in no way depends on a subjective determination of the difficulty of a climb and i have taken rock type out of the equation by assuming that your gear will withstand up to 2000 lbs of force. rather it depends on gravity and the forces generated by a fall and the amount of rope between the belayer and the climber.
"I usually place about every body length or just a little less." why? and what makes you think that after placing pro at those intervals that your gear will hold a fall and you won't hit the ground?
"It's all your comfort level and how much you can commit, really." building a system of protection that will keep you from hitting the ground if you fall has nothing to do with your comfort level or how much you can commit. your system of protection will either hold a fall or it won't and the forces generated dont depend on how confident you are feeling.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-11-25 23:14 ]
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climber1
Nov 26, 2001, 9:43 PM
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newbieclimber, place gear as much or as little as you want. if you want to run it out tha's up to you. if you want to sew itup, that's up to you. even on easy terrain it doesn't hurt to place a piece. also, I was place a piece not to far above the anchors so as not to load them if I fall.
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talons05
Nov 26, 2001, 11:07 PM
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Newbieclimber - You're pretty quick to tell us that we're wrong here... In fact, it DOES depend on difficulty of climb. Harder climbs sometimes don't ALLOW you to place pro except in certain places. Easier ones are easier because the availability for protection and its ease of placement.
Now, for your question. A 165 foot pitch. Here's how it works out mathematically, taking out the variables of placement opportunity or rock type (assuming that every place mathematically needed for placement is available, and assuming that the rock is solid and placements bomber.)
1)Let's start by placing the very first piece of the pitch at 5 feet off of the belay. This piece should have an opposing piece placed with it, to avoid the "zipper" phenom.
1)
x [--first piece of pro.
.
.
. = 1 ft.
.
--------- Belay ledge
2)Ok, ideally, you would want to place your next piece about 2.5 feet above that. Now, if you fall before that second placement, you still won't ground out.
2)
 x
.
.
x
.
.
.
.
-------------------
3)Now you have 7.5 feet of rope out and you're 7.5 feet of the belay. Now you can climb 3.5 feet more and place some pro... If you fall, you fall 7 feet total and with rope stretch, you come close to the ledge but are still good to go.
3)
x
.
.
x
.
.
x
.
.
.
.
-----------
4)Now you are 11 feet out. Climb 5 more feet and place pro. If you fall, you have a 1 foot cushion for the rope to stretch.
4)
x
.
.
.
.
x
.
.
x
.
.
x
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.
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.
----------------
5) Now you are 16 feet out (only 154 to go)Climb 7 feet and place pro. You now have a 2 foot cushion from grounding.
5)
x
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x
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.
x
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x
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x
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----------------
6) Now you are 23 feet out. You can go as far as 10 feet and safely place pro. You now have 3 feet of cushion.
I don't want to take up too much space, but as you can see, the further you get, the farther spaced placements can be. It is still a good idea to keep the placements constant. (These numbers are just the ones that mathematically satisfy your question and don't allow the climber to hit solid ground.)
AW
[ This Message was edited by: talons05 on 2001-11-26 15:11 ]
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newbieclimber
Nov 27, 2001, 12:08 AM
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talons05,
"In fact, it DOES depend on difficulty of climb. Harder climbs sometimes don't ALLOW you to place pro except in certain places."
i would like to repeat that the question as to whether the system of protection you have built will hold a fall has NOTHING to do with how hard the climb is. the laws of physics do not give you a free pass if the climb is hard and you can't put gear in. but it is heartening to see at least one trad climber try to approach the question with some analytical thinking.
however your approach is too simplistic. gear does not hold unlimitted forces and so just determining where the length of rope out will just barely keep you off the deck and then putting in pro at that point will not work. your gear will certainly rip out if you fall on it before you reach those spots because the forces generated by your fall will be too big for your gear to hold.
if it's any consolation to you most trad climbers whether they are experienced or not have no idea how much gear to put in to build a safe system.
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wigglestick
Nov 27, 2001, 12:20 AM
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newbieclimber,
I suggest that you visit the www.petzl.com and look at the fall simulator and you analyze this subject all you want with different variables, types of pro, etc.
It will be very educational.
Also remember that eventhough you pro may be able to withstand a 2000 lb force, more often than not the quality of the placement/quality of rock limits the strength that any one piee will hold.
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talons05
Nov 27, 2001, 12:26 AM
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"however your approach is too simplistic. gear does not hold unlimitted forces and so just determining where the length of rope out will just barely keep you off the deck and then putting in pro at that point will not work."
Actually, "newbie," you are the one who said to assume that the protection would hold 2000 lbs of force. For that reason, I incorporated this into my explanation. If you still don't understand then I'm afraid I can't help you.
For some reason, I get the idea that you don't really have much experience trad climbing. You seem to have failed to grasp some of the fundamental concepts.
AW
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jds100
Nov 27, 2001, 12:38 AM
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Good luck, Newbie, on getting people to respond to you; that's a hell of an attitude ya got there! If you don't get it from what's been said already, then, unless you want to die or get hurt really badly, go read books that you can keep referring back to, until it makes sense.
The most simplistic answer to your question is to place the pro a little above halfway up, accounting for the stretch of a dynamic rope (that's one of the "theories" you seem unfamiliar with). If you think difficulty of the climb doesn't make a difference, then you need to learn why some climbs are rated harder than others. A few of the many variables include rock type, quality and frequency of placements, and stances for making those placements.
I can't tell if you think you already know the answer, of if you're just a dick, no matter what somebody replies.
The gear, itself, is generally constructed to hold well beyond the load limit you state (other than micro nuts, which are more for aid climbing), so the variable HAS to be the rock, genius! The placement could be sketchy, the rock could be friable; the gear could blow out -fail to stop a fall- for reasons that have nothing to do with the strength of the hardware.
Remember: there's an "injury and accident" forum, so you'll have a place to tell us all how your trad experience went, after suggesting how dumb most of us are.
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2001-11-26 17:47 ]
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talons05
Nov 27, 2001, 12:43 AM
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Thank you, JDS. Maybe he'll listen eventually. Good luck, I guess. The reason we've been answering this post is because we have experience in the field of traditional climbing. If you are the expert, as you seem to think, then why ask us for advice? I can assure you that the facts we have laid before you come from having been there and climbed it. We're not making it up. I really would suggest you listen to us.
AW
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atg200
Nov 27, 2001, 12:48 AM
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newbieclimber, perhaps you should do a little more thinking before you tell people who give you good advice that they are wrong.
the length of the fall doesn't matter at all-the fall factor is important. a 10 foot fall near the anchor with little rope out will generate far more force than a 100 foot fall with lots of rope out. the rope absorbs most of the force of the wall-if it didn't even a short fall quickly exceeds the strngth of most carabiners. this is why we use dynamic rope and not static line for leading.
this is one reason why it is generally recommended to place often near the belay and less as you go higher(the other being you don't want to deck, but even on mulipitch routes this holds true).
this is climbing-there are no formulas that can be applied at will. place early and often, and make sure your first few pieces off the belay are totaaly bomber. if you are looking at a hard stretch with little pro, place two pieces for redundancy-you never want to rely on a single anchor.
andrew
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newbieclimber
Nov 27, 2001, 1:33 AM
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talons05,
'Actually, "newbie," you are the one who said to assume that the protection would hold 2000 lbs of force. For that reason, I incorporated this into my explanation.'
i reread your post and i dont see where 2000 lbs of force per protection point came into play in your analysis. maybe you could enlighten me further. how would pro that could withstand up to 2500 lbs of force change your analysis?
'I get the idea that you don't really have much experience trad climbing.'
no i dont. that is why i am trying to learn about it.
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-11-26 17:35 ]
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jds100
Nov 27, 2001, 1:48 AM
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Hey, Newbie, you live alone, don't you?
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talons05
Nov 27, 2001, 3:04 AM
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"newbie" -
You are dense. Ok. Let me make it as easy to understand as I can. You were bashing my explanation earlier:
"your gear will certainly rip out if you fall on it before you reach those spots because the forces generated by your fall will be too big for your gear to hold."
I was simply explaining to you that you at the very beginning said to assume that each piece would hold 2000 lbs. of force. For this reason, we can assume that in my explanation, all pieces are expected to hold. Also, in my explanation (which can't get much clearer, it has pictures for crying out loud) I allowed an increasing cushion to allow for rope stretch. Rope stretch, by the way, is a fact, not a theory, Newbie.
"if it's any consolation to you most trad climbers whether they are experienced or not have no idea how much gear to put in to build a safe system."
As a matter of fact, I have taken more than one fall on a traditional route while leading. The fact that I am still alive and intact speaks for itself toward my understanding of placements. If that's not enough, I just showed you exactly the correct numbers and dimensions for placements.
It looks to me like you haven't even CLEANED a route, much less led one. You need to find an experienced trad climber and follow him on several climbs. Then you need to lead some yourself. If you are still alive after this, then you MAY begin to question my knowledge on the subject.
AW
[ This Message was edited by: talons05 on 2001-11-26 19:06 ]
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newbieclimber
Nov 27, 2001, 7:21 AM
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talons05,
"I was simply explaining to you that you at the very beginning said to assume that each piece would hold 2000 lbs. of force. For this reason, we can assume that in my explanation, all pieces are expected to hold."
wrong. you certainly dont understand gear and fall forces very well. the assumption as to how much force your gear can withstand has a profound impact on the spacing of your pro. if you space out your pro too far you can zipper your gear and hit the deck.
next!
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-11-26 23:32 ]
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atg200
Nov 27, 2001, 6:45 PM
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newbieclimber, you have no idea what you are talking about. your hypothetical situation is stupid and irrelevant. start listening when people who are far more experienced than you give advice-most of what has been written on this thread is very good.
people have taken 100 foot falls onto birdbeaks. i personally took a 40 foot fall onto a teeny tiny bronze offset(#2), which by the way isn't rated to anywhere near 2000 pounds. was this a miracle? of course not.
the first place you are wrong is talking about pounds. kN is a measurement of force, not weight. start thinking in terms of forces and you'll be better off.
perhaps you don't know what dynamic means. it means the rope stretches. as an experiment, grab 6 inches of the rope and try to stretch it. doesn't work. now tie one end to a tree and try to stretch the entire line. nice and springy, huh? the stretching action absorbs a great deal of the force of the fall, which is what enables crap gear like beaks and rps to ctach monster whoopers. this also illustrates why you need to place more gear at the start of the pitch-a less rope that is out in the system, the less force the rope can absorb.
the points about difficulty are valid as well. try to place a good stopper when you are pumped. go ahead, try. i don't know about you, but my ability to hang out and work out the best possible placement is impaired when my fingers are uncurling from holds. thankfully, no law states that you have to place gear every 7.28643 feet so you can punch it to that nice ledge 4 feet above you. on the other hand, if that nice ledge is 25 feet above you, you may want to think about backing off. this scenario is far more valid than your academic example.
i'm not sure if you are a troll or really this arrogant. at any rate, i'm done with this thread. try not to get yourself killed newbieclimber, you'll make other climbers look bad.
andrew
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climb512
Nov 27, 2001, 7:58 PM
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when i started leading, my partner said to zip it up. seeing as how i was leading 5.2-5.3 at the gunks, and there are lots of good holds so as not to get pumped out on. he said it was good practice to place as much as possible. it sounded logical and he would critique evry peice he pulled while following. made me a better climber and leader i beleive.
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talons05
Nov 27, 2001, 8:22 PM
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Newbie just doesn't get it and he's mad that he was wrong...
AW
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newbieclimber
Nov 27, 2001, 9:21 PM
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"the first place you are wrong is talking about pounds. kN is a measurement of force, not weight. start thinking in terms of forces and you'll be better off." (atg200)
wrong. weight is a measurement of force just as newtons are.
"Let's assume you are using dynamic rope conforming to UIAA standards, and you take a whipper of Fall Factor 2 (the worst possible) coz you didn't understand anything we've said about placing pro so you didn't place any. Assuming also you're in the middle of a big wall and will not hit a ledge of any sort, the most force that will be transmitted (if you're 80kg or below) is 12kn because of the stretch of the rope absorbing the energy of the fall." (sonic)
wrong. uiaa falls for rope testing are not factor 2 falls and factor 2 falls are not the maximum. furthermore the 12 kN maximum force you quote is what the climber will experience at her end of the rope. the gear will be subjected to almost twice that force.
"Most of the pro is made to withstand 20kn or more so there should be no issue as to whether they will withstand the forces or not." (sonic)
wrong. i have a full set of camalots, stoppers, and hexes and not one of them is rated to 20kn.
next!
[ This Message was edited by: newbieclimber on 2001-11-27 17:51 ]
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wigglestick
Nov 27, 2001, 9:45 PM
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Newbie,
Please go to http://www.petzl.com/simul/FC/index.html
and read about it for yourself. Quit trying to pick fights by pretending you don't know something and then jumping all over people when they try to help. This page has all the math equations you could ask for. Feel free to do some integration if it makes you feel smart.
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