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texasclimber
Jan 28, 2003, 4:29 PM
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I have read what seems like 100s of pages for info on Ephedra. Their are only two kinds of opinions it seems. The first are those who sell Ephedra and say it is harmless and those who say it will kill you if you take it. I'm looking for some climbers that have taken it so I can hear those opinions. Please respond if you take it, have taken it, or don't take it because you have been told not to by a healthcare professional. And why please. Thanks!
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tim
Jan 28, 2003, 4:37 PM
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(edited to clarify)
I USED TO stack ephedra, caffeine, and aspirin (vasodilator/cyclooxygenase inhibitor, counteracts some of the vasoconstrictive/hypertensive effects of the stack) prior to running when I was on the wrestling team at Cornell (for one semester, then I wised up and focused on studying).
When I was wrestling it made sense to use the stuff because bodyfat percentage is important (not as important as technique or endurance, but important nonetheless) for collegiate wrestling. If two guys weigh the same and are equally fast and tough, the guy with less bodyfat has strength-to-weight advantage.
I don't use thermogenics anymore. I probably could lose a little more weight when I run by resuming them (10%?), but I don't feel like it's worth the expense for the marginal benefit.
Ephedrine and other central nervous stimulants work well for getting your core temperature up but will make you antsy. My standard dosage was a Vivarin, a 25(?)mg ephedrine tablet, and a 325mg aspirin tablet, cycled off for the last week of each month. The aspirin was (in my opinion) very important, as was some sort of sports drink for forced rehydration (gatorade, fruit juice + pinch of salt, koolaid + Mg citrate, whatever blows yer skirt up), to avoid the negative effects of dehydration and vasoconstrictive hypertension. The latter is a direct side effect of caffeine and ephedrine.
There have been reports of people having hypertensive transient ischemias (mini-strokes) from high dosages of ephedrine. I think that's why only the ephedra herb is still easily available. Regardless, I took it for a couple years, and did not encounter those problems. On the other hand I breathe deeply and continuously when lifting weights or exerting strenuously, avoiding the Valsalva maneuver (blood pressure spike from holding one's breath at maximum muscular exertion) which may have been the true culprit in some of these strokes, along with dehydration (thickens the blood, increasing the chances even further).
I wouldn't use it in the mountains, it's a very good diuretic, which is the last thing you need when you're out climbing.
You should check out Eric Horst's site,
http://www.trainingforclimbing.com/
and maybe buy his book, it's only $16.
The bottom line is that ephedra is somewhat like speed, only with more "side effects" and less direct effects. Are you a tweaker? Do you want to feel like one? ...
[ This Message was edited by: tim on 2003-01-28 11:10 ]
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gawd
Jan 28, 2003, 4:56 PM
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never ever take that crap.
it is so f%^$^%$%$^*%^$%#$ bad you!!
first of all, it changes your heart rate and when hiking or doing other such activities you can upset your hearts rhythm.
it does leave you slightly out of it. affecting your mental disposition. making inportant decisions more difficult.
supplements like that also leech calcium from your bones, increasing potential for injury.
you are putting your mind/ body into a false state. which cheats true training. you maybe thinkinng you are getting better only to have been training poorly.(see above)
please do not take this crap!! work harder for yourself!!
(tim, that explains so much!)
if you are bent on trying some sort of enhancing supplement, i would go with ginsing. and not mai wong.
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cedk
Jan 28, 2003, 5:06 PM
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Are you trying to lose weight? You should at least try to just run lots of miles a week and eat only Subway before doing anything as drastic as chemicals don't you think? If you have already tried this then I'd say increase the mileage.
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cloudbreak
Jan 28, 2003, 5:21 PM
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....tweakers do!!!!!
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lox
Jan 28, 2003, 5:31 PM
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Try Ma Huang... it is an herb from which Ephedra is extracted.
Claytor FA flashed the roof crimp at Rogers while Huanging... it's nice.
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mauriceb
Jan 28, 2003, 5:45 PM
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Like tim and b-upright, I've taken the ephedrine based supplements for about 3-4 years with no problems. Personally I like Xenadrine. I take it before my workouts (lifting, running, or cycling) because it gives me a nice consistent energy level throughout my workout. My gf also takes it and doesn't have any problems.
As mentioned above, depending on how your system reacts it can make you gittery. It is a stimulant after all. I'm not sure why a person would take it for climbing, other than weight-loss. As with all supplements, take half the suggested dosage to see how your body is going to react.
maurice
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one900johnnyk
Jan 28, 2003, 5:56 PM
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i was under the impression ma huang is ephedra, just renamed to suit the consuming public. actually i'm pretty sure of it. i wouldn't worry too much, it used to be made a big deal of (about the heart rate and all) but i noticed absolutely nothing. the problem is that it def. makes you lose appetite/weight so if you are in to weightlifting i would say no. it's really not so bad. just like saccharine. %@#$in people these days...
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gawd
Jan 28, 2003, 6:05 PM
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only one person has used it climbing and they sent? hmm..
i truely say stay away from all supplements, your bosy takes a natural path through training and devlopment and taking drugs or other supplements disturbs that path. it introduces CHEMICALS that are only required in trace amounts, and then you go and take this crap and it upsets that balance. these people making claims have yet to use it under extreme duress. i am talking baout running your body for with short periods of rest and high exertion mapped out of several days.
used the caca in s america and found in the end, it disrupted my heart rate and metabolism for a long time after i quit using it and returned home.
leave this crap alone!
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asaph
Jan 28, 2003, 6:13 PM
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forgive my ignorance - but what exactly is the stuff and what is the desired effect?
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lox
Jan 28, 2003, 6:20 PM
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Ma Huang is an actual root. It contains a high amount of ephedra.
It is a bit smoother than a straight ephedrine tablet...
I like the Ripped Fuel GNC brand Ma Huang. It has a lot of caffeine.
And basically what 2 tabswill do is give you enough energy for a phatty 2 hour session.
It's speed.
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andy_lemon
Jan 28, 2003, 6:47 PM
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I've taken Xenadrine and other products... I might as well been taking steroids, the $#!& made my system so jumpy I smoked a pack of cigerettes a day and I'm not even a smoker. I also had a bad temper when I was on it... at one point and time Xenadrine + one beer was enough for me to walk up to a guy in a bar and hit him for no reason. That $#!& f*cked with me.. mentally and physically. It however DID make me lose fat and appear ripped.
After much deliberation with the girlfriend, I'm off that stuff. I wouldn't recommend it for anybody. They are making a safer but less effective alternative to the product.
Andy
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mother_sheep
Jan 28, 2003, 6:52 PM
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I used to swear by Hydroxycut, a thermogenic weight loss product containing Ma-Huang extract. I also used Ripped Fuel and got the same awesome physical results but for less money. When I use either product, I notice that I gain lean muscle definition at a rapid rate. It does cause my heart rate to increase but I actually enjoy that buzz. I spoke to my doctor because I wanted to ensure that I wasn't really messing my body up and he told me that it is safe. He went on to tell me that a lot of the trouble with supplements like that is that people take too much. For whatever reason or another, they are not seeing the results that they expected so they take an unhealthy amount that is out of line with the recommended dose. I took the stuff for years and I will take it again. If you try something with ephedra or ma-huang, I would suggest that you follow the directions and take it gradually. If you're not used to the buzz it gives you, I could see how it could scare you. Its better to start slow.
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rockpossum
Jan 28, 2003, 7:00 PM
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I have about 25 years of ephedrine and ephedrine derived products experience.
It is commonly prescribed as an allergy drug in lab built form of psuedo-epehedrine for the reasons Tim cites above. Both prescription and over the counter. Got a runny nose? Ephedra or its variations will dry it right up.
Ma Huang is the herbal source and is milder largely because it has not been distilled down to the active ingredient ephedra which is way easier to O.D. It has been a component of Chinese medicine for centuries in tea or powder form. Largely prescribed for asthma and bronchial problems.
I've tried coca leaves in the Andes too, at altitude it's great stuff. Hope that you meant coca Gawd, wouldn't put caca in my mouth. Not in Italy anyway.
If you choose to take this stuff the only caveat I would offer is if you have any sort of mental illness ie; bipolar disorder, depression, schizophrenia etc. or even if you think you might. Stay away from alkaloid drugs like these. They tend to magnify the disorder and leave your brain chemicals in a shambles when you are off them.
Otherwise they do everything as advertised.
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sunsation
Jan 28, 2003, 7:04 PM
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I took Hydroxycut for a short while. My temper was so WAY out of control that everyone around me begged and begged me to go off it. I wasn't noticing any outstanding results, so I went off. I could get the same results by training smart. I also know a girl who was training for a body building comp and she was taking it to lean down. She got heart palpitations from both Hydroxycut and Rippedfuel and now takes neither. I know a guy who was taking it and you couldn't stand to be around him because he just sat there zoned, grinding the hell out of his teeth. IMHO, taking any variation of ephedra is the lazy person's way to getting in shape. It might get you quick results, but it's at the expense of your well-being.
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djmeat
Jan 28, 2003, 7:08 PM
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Just like any pharmaceutical short cut there is a cost.
Example: Over the years now over 100 people have died from taking Ephedrine.
less then 30 died from phen phen(sp?). but yet phen phen is illegal.
If you take ephedrine will you die? Likely no. does it increase your chance for freak health problems like stroke. Yes.
But you have to personally weigh the benefits against the cost. I mean if you want lean muscle definition try anabolic steroids. They have some rather nasty health effects but you will gain more muscle in less time than you know what to do with.
p.s. I don't do any of the above. When I want lean muscle definition I go to the gym more and eat like a rabbit. Chemical short cuts are for lazy people that don't mind poisoning themselves.
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mother_sheep
Jan 28, 2003, 7:13 PM
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Sun- you may want to reconsider who you're calling lazy. Judging from your post I might consider you to be pretty damn ignorant considering that you just admitted to having taken the stuff yourself, whereby making you lazy too.
P.S. Tex - they also make a ma-huang free Ripped Fuel. I had pretty good results from that as well.
[ This Message was edited by: tracyroach on 2003-01-28 11:16 ]
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texasclimber
Jan 28, 2003, 7:14 PM
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Thanks for the replies everyone. I took Xenadrine with Ephedra for a week and noticed that it made me more jiddery than normal, but no big deal. I also only took 2 pills a day, rather than the full 4 a day. The only time I got scared taking it was when climbing or working my body really hard. I jsut felt my heart really pumping, which is what it si suppost to do. I know Xenadrine comes in a non-ephedra form now. Maybe I'll work with that and if it doesn't work with exercise and a pretty good diet, then I will switch to Xenadrine with Ephedra. Keep the comments coming as I am still interested in what you all have to say. Thanks again.
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sunsation
Jan 28, 2003, 7:17 PM
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Tracy, hit a sore spot eh?
Laziness is a beautiful thing, just not at the expense of my health.
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tim
Jan 28, 2003, 7:20 PM
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Gawd seems to have the mistaken impression that I continued to use ephedrine and similar stimulants after I quit wrestling. It ain't so... although I am naturally temperamental.
Ironically, I happen to agree with Gawd, the marginal benefits of taking a drug (with known side effects, most of which are negative) are dwarfed by the benefit of sucking it up, climbing a lot, and training hard.
I recently stopped lifting hard for my legs and refocused on bouldering, rope-knot pullups, dips, and other climbing-specific movements, along with some antagonist muscle training (I have developed medial epicondylitis, aka climber's/golfer's elbow). I am hoping that running and biking enough to lose 10-15 pounds, and pushing my limits outdoors over the winter, will be enough to help get me up some 5.10+/5.11- trad leads I want to climb this coming season. I do not see how any chemical or herb or trick would help the way directed training and getting out there every weekend has.
Speed and other CNS stimulants are legendary for making you feel 10 feet tall and bulletproof, or at least distorting your perception of reality. When I stopped using the ephedrine stack I had the same issues with my metabolism being weird that Gawd reported. They went away after a few months but I wouldn't go back to using the stuff without a pretty strong motivation, eg. "need to lose 5lbs. to compete" and since I don't lift in competition, don't wrestle anymore, and don't box, it's unlikely to happen.
Chris Kalous told me, when I asked him what it was like doing the 2nd ascent of the Reticent, that he and Mark Synott started calling coffee the 'breakfast of fear' since it makes you all antsy and jittery and hyper-aware of how far out from safety you are. Some of the best aid climbers I know have been stoned out of their minds on crux pitches, which personally I wouldn't want to be either (I'm happy being average and having fun, instead of trying to please a sponsor). But the point is that just about everything you can take has its ups and downs, and unless you're competing or performing at a very high level, when you weigh the pros (some marginal performance edge) against the cons (costs money, bad side effects), things like ephedrine, steroids, HGH, etc. only really make sense for elite athletes.
end of sermon
[ This Message was edited by: tim on 2003-01-28 11:30 ]
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mother_sheep
Jan 28, 2003, 7:21 PM
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Don't flatter yourself sun. Did I hit a sore spot with you by throwing your ignorance in your face. And no, laziness is not a beautiful thing. Wrong once again.
[ This Message was edited by: tracyroach on 2003-01-28 11:23 ]
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koko
Jan 28, 2003, 7:24 PM
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just eat a banana and go climb
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sunsation
Jan 28, 2003, 7:26 PM
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This is what I mean about ephedra side effects... NICE ATTITUDE TRACY. Maybe ya better lay off the stuff...
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mother_sheep
Jan 28, 2003, 7:28 PM
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How long did it take for you to think of that one? Read my initial post ding dong. Key word there. . .t-o-o-k. Yer making me laf.
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sunsation
Jan 28, 2003, 7:34 PM
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Wow, you're like this naturally? Charming disposition...
Personally I agree with koko: Go eat a banana and climb. Great advice.
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