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cliffhippo


Dec 13, 2001, 1:30 AM
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Hanging for a rest in the middle of a climb.
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I don\'t know how many times at my local crag I\'ve Seen other people hanging on their top rope set up resting their arms or whatever. The crag i climb has no more than 50 foot routes. I know what they do is their buisiness but i feel like saying something because there is no way to get better and build indurance by climbing this way. One time i let this kid jump on my rope to climb an arete that took me alot of effort to send. Every five feet he would have my buddy lock him up he would swing of to a tree and hold on to rest. then he would swing back to the rock and climb another five feet. once at the top he starts yelling like he\'s sweet and acts like he sent the route on his own. the only reason this pisses me off is that it makes those who put forth the effort to acctualy climb it on their own seem no beter than some jack off who had his grandma buy him some rope and other gear. Should we incourage these slackers to climb or ignore them and let them go on thinking their as good as those of us who commit to calling off work sick just to go climbing 6 times a week. i dont know mabey i am just a nut let me know what you think.


Partner rrrADAM


Dec 13, 2001, 2:00 AM
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Hanging for a rest in the middle of a climb. [In reply to]
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"I know what they do is their buisiness but i feel like saying something because there is no way to get better and build indurance by climbing this way."

This is not true... Do you onsight everything you climb ??? If so, you are not pushing yourself hard enough, and this will not increase your technique nor endurance. If you get pumped on a route and come off, do you lower down and quit the route ???

I personally don't know anyone who has not hangdogged.


rrrADAM


kman


Dec 13, 2001, 2:47 AM
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Hanging for a rest in the middle of a climb. [In reply to]
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"I know what they do is their buisiness but i feel like saying something because there is no way to get better and build indurance by climbing this way."

If they are hangin they may already be pumped if they are doing a route that is above their ability. Or maybe they are still pumped from a previous climb. Your right though...it is their business and not yours. If you said something to me regarding my hang i'd tell you where to go.

Peace


cliffhippo


Dec 13, 2001, 2:55 AM
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You are not catching exactly what i am saying i am talking about those who repeatedly hang and rest. when i fall i lower to the ground and try again from the begining. i am talking about those who hang and climb hang and climb. then still act as if they sent the route. then go to a new climb and do it again i am only interested in helping these people improve. i am not the best but i climb balls out. i dont see why you assume i am talking s--- about these people atlast they are climbing. however where i climb you get a lot of cocky people who like to start trouble i like to make as many freinds as possible. what i was saying is that i think i should mativate these people to get the route on their own. these are not just any people these are climbers i have seen many time before and talked to many times. AS I SAID the climber was on my rope. therefore was climbing with him. i dont meen just any person at the crag i would walk up and give them my 2 sense i'm not an asshole

[ This Message was edited by: cliffhippo on 2001-12-13 03:00 ]


kman


Dec 13, 2001, 3:31 AM
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Thanks for clarifying that. I thought that you would just say that to any one hangin for a rest. Ok...so if it's like you say and they are climb stop climb stop climb stop, on my rope, I would be wanting them to get their slacker ass to the top so that I could have a go. Actually...I have been climbing with some one like that before and it was pretty annoying.

"however where i climb you get a lot of cocky people who like to start trouble "

cocky people who start trouble piss me off. Grrr

[ This Message was edited by: kman on 2001-12-13 03:33 ]


dhoyne


Dec 13, 2001, 5:36 AM
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Many of my climbing friends are better than I am, and I occasionally find myself trying a climb just above my abilities. I used to hang quite a bit on these, then my buddy that was belaying me came up with a good idea -- every time I hang, he gives me about 5 seconds to shake out my arms, chalk up, whatever, then he slowly starts lowering me. If I can't get back on the rock quickly I'm much lower than where I started to hang, so it's encouragement to build up the stamina to get the climb done, and if I can't do the climb, I'm not wasting other people's time.


case22


Dec 13, 2001, 6:46 AM
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That happened to my friend at the Red on To Defy The Laws of Tradition. We let one climber and her partner in front of us. Well, she did really well, but he was sitting there hanging on the rope, stretching it out for about 45 minutes! My other friend had busted his balls to get it up for top rope! I'm waiting to belay my partner and he ended up not sending it because he wasn't warmed up anymore! That guy really annoyed me and all of my climbing friends that day!


Partner polarwid


Dec 13, 2001, 9:51 AM
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  see "DO YOUR BREEASTS HELP OR HINDER YOUR CLIMBING ABILITY" for more info on this subject...


passthepitonspete


Dec 13, 2001, 10:25 AM
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I am Dr. Pee'd On, and I am the traddest of the trad.

So tell me how trad this sounds:

When I read, "Hanging for a rest in the middle of a climb," the first thing I thought was, "that's cheating."

I don't make a practice of hangdogging. When my friends and I were developing the crags in Ontario in the late 70's and early 80's, we considered that to be cheating. There was this 8 x 10 photo I took of Steve DeMaio that used to rest above the door of Terry Monk's Canadian Mountain Supplies store in Oakville, where Steve was attempting a route at Nemo that later became (I think) Queen of the Pentacles. Terry is the dad of Reid Monk
who owns the Gravity Climbing Gym in Hamilton, by the way.

At any rate, Steve was climbing in our usual ground-up no falls style. As he was run out about thirty feet on the unprotected face, he desperately grabbed a pin and whacked it in, narrowly averting another epic whipper like the forty-foot factor 1 fall I caught him on when he first attempted Parental Guidance, the sandbag of sandbags. Now, we rarely used pins, and never bolts. And amidst Steve's fear and from that usual third party detachment the belayer enjoys while his leader is busy preparing to meet his Maker, I made some critical comment like, "Gee, Steve, it sure sounds like you're using a lot of iron up there..."

To this day, Steve still pisses himself laughing over that comment! Some woosy sport climber came by and later bolted the route. Or maybe he wasn't a woosy, but we would still consider it cheating.

There are routes in Ontario that I waited for ten years before attempting - I wanted to climb them from the ground up on-sight with no falls or rests. To me, anything else is cheating. There were plenty of times gwhen I was crying tears of anger and frustration after failing on a route I had "saved" for so long!

One such route I saved til I was good enough to climb it was Sad-Eyed Lady of the Lowlands at Buffalo Crag. I had to wait until my Post-Divorce Renaissance when I had time to train all winter in the gym. It's only a 10d, which is moderate by sport climbing standards, but it packs a punch because a ground fall from the crux twenty-five feet up is a very real possibility. I sent it the first day of the season (in March) after many months of working out, and I felt like a hero because I flashed it on sight and had never set foot on it before. (Of course, the rest of the climbing season was downhill from that point....)

I came back a year later to try Sad Eyed Lady again. I climbed up a short distance, and popped off when my finger slipped. I still remember my partner, with whom I was climbing for the first time, commenting on the sound of my finger popping. So imagine the amazement of my new partner when I lowered off, shook out, then climbed back up, took out all the pro, downclimbed back to the ground, rested, then climbed back up again, put the gear back in, and sent the route.

To me, to have climbed the route with any pre-placed gear would have been "cheating".

When we were making first ascents, if we couldn't do it, we'd back off and train harder! This is a novel concept for many climbers, but a concept about which I have previously spoken. There was an article published in Mountain Magazine back then when Ron Foreskin took 35 falls off of Strawberries, and the premise was that falling off is cheating. We agreed. I still feel that way.

I don't "work" routes - I climb them. Without falling. Anything less and I will beat myself up for the next week!

Even in the climbing gym I try to wait until I am strong enough to attempt a route, because I want to send it first try!

I now believe that were I to have worked routes, I would have been able to climb harder than the 11b or 11c I was able to do a few years ago. Maybe if I had cheated and worked routes on toprope or by falling off, I could have reached 5.12.

But you know what? To me, that means nothing. What matters is that I was climbing on the sharp end risking long falls on hard trad routes, scared for my very life, (and as Maxwell Smart would say) "...and loving it!"



NOTES TO YOUNG CLIMBERS:

- you only get ONE chance to make an onsight flash of a route

- it is OK to wait until you are good enough to climb it without falling

- it is OK to wait ten years if this is how long it will take you to become good enough

- it is OK to wait twenty years if you have to! There are routes in Ontario that still await my coming out of Free Climbing Retirement, which I do from time to time, but since I am basically lazy and don't like to train, I prefer to solo big walls

- climbing is an esoteric activity that serves no real purpose - where you purposely do something difficult simply because it is difficult - in order to
test yourself against its difficulty

- if you agree with my line of thinking, making a difficult activity less difficult by pre-inspection, toproping, falling off, or hangdogging is
counter-productive to the purpose of climbing it

- grade is less important than difficulty and style

- I wanted Cliffhippo to know that he is not alone

- you only get ONE chance to make an onsight flash of a route





If you wish to hangdog, toprope, or fall off, please do as you like. These are issues of style, and as such these issues are none of my business (even though you know what I'm thinking!). If you want to start drilling bolts, this is an issue of ethics because of the permanence of your decision, and an issue on which I may decide to challenge you. Were to retro-bolt one of my routes, which has not yet happened as far as I am aware, I would remove your bolt and fill the hole with rock dust and epoxy to render it invisible.

Leo Houlding is a friend of mine, and as far as I am aware he topropes some of his routes prior to leading them. On hard British gritstone climbing, (and there is not much if any bolted sport climbing on British grit!) toprope rehearsal is common prior to making what is called the "headpoint" ascent of a real live death route. Some of the routes Leo has "headpointed" check in at 5.13d or better, with the "X" death route rating of course appended.

On Savage Horse, which is E9 7a or 5.13c X, Leo protected the route with RP's and skyhooks. I do not know if Leo toproped this climb a few times prior to leading it or not, but I would like to state for the record that if he did toprope it first, I would not think one bit less of him.

Neither would Climbing Magazine, which recently voted Leo Houlding as the Best Traditional Rock Climber on the Planet.

You, too, can choose to climb like Leo sometimes, when you're feeling "on form" and your neck is the length of a giraffe's and your gonads the size of grapefruits.

You, too, can choose to climb in a better style than the bumblies flailing around on topropes beside you.

You can actually train harder, become a better climber, and invest years of energy and passion until you reach the point where you can climb something harder and more dangerous than anything you have yet climbed, and if you are bold, skilled and lucky, you may even live to tell the tale, which is something I approve of, incidentally.

Or you can go clip bolts and hangdog with the rest of them.

When I think back on my climbing accomplish-
ments over the last twenty years, you can probably guess correctly which memories I cherish most.



I am Dr. Pee'd On

"Plain vanilla" I ain't.

[ This Message was edited by: passthepitonspete on 2001-12-13 10:36 ]


sidepull


Dec 13, 2001, 10:31 AM
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I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend that you've presented us with a paradox you're willing to explain:

"if you agree with my line of thinking, making a difficult activity less difficult by pre-inspection, toproping, falling off, or hangdogging is counter-productive to the purpose of climbing it"

vs.

"Leo toproped this climb a few times prior to leading it or not, but I would like to state for the record that if he did toprope it first, I would not think one bit less of him."

I'll give you a way out: "You can actually train harder."



passthepitonspete


Dec 13, 2001, 10:37 AM
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You're right! I'll Mention that to Leo next time I see him!


andy_lemon


Dec 13, 2001, 11:02 AM
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hanging on a top-rope should be refered to as:

HANG-DOGGING

For more information on the proper technique of hang-dogging check with the Secret Society of Flatlander:

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/flatlander

[ This Message was edited by: andy_lemon on 2001-12-14 10:52 ]


passthepitonspete


Dec 13, 2001, 11:07 AM
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I'm sort of gritting my teeth when I read, "after you've blown that chance" because after you've blown that chance, you've blown it! (in my opinion anyway)

Er, uh, I still sort of don't "get" this stuff about redpoint and pinkpoint and yo-yo, so in truth I don't exactly know what you mean by "yo-yo"! [duh]

Generally speaking, if I failed on a route, I will lower to the ground in shame, and likely get someone else to climb it and/or clean it for me so as to not pre-inspect it any more than necessary. Then I would go hit the outdoor buildering walls (cuz we didn't have climbing gyms back then) and try to build up some strength so that I could try it again later.

So no, I wouldn't yo-yo, cuz that's a bit like pre-inspection.

What I would do is go home and beat myself up for the next week!


jds100


Dec 13, 2001, 11:25 AM
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The short answer seems to be that it's a matter of style choice. And, rest assured, there's a lot of people that would also be annoyed by what you've observed. But, I think your actions toward these climbers is dictated by whatever relationship you have with them; if you know them, you might feel comfortable explaining something about common ethics, or you might feel confrontational, or whatever, just as in any other every day setting, involving some difference in behavioral standards.

If someone I know would ever start hootin' and hollerin' about sending a route that he just 'dogged, I would put a stop to that. I have strong opinions about climber integrity when it comes to making claims, or even implying or leaving open to inference, about one's accomplishments, abilities, experience, and knowledge. I don't generally accept that kind of dishonesty quietly.

You should feel free to say whatever you think is appropriate; just be prepared for them not accepting your input graciously.

[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2001-12-13 11:26 ]


stigonrock


Dec 13, 2001, 12:18 PM
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Sometimes you gotta work a route to improve, push the grade..you know what I mean..and sometimes I have to work a route to step into the next grade.

But I know for me that I don't claim a route until I've got a clean ascent i.e. no resting on rope or gear...redpoint or nothing ...If I've rested on a route even if I've made it to the top...then in my mind...I have not climbed it..and therefore cannot claim it as bagged.

Its amazing the number of people who do claim a route after they've dogged their way up it..well who are they kidding...certainly not me....just themselves...let them get on with it.

at the end of the day...
Actions speak louder than words..thats what I say. Its a personal thing..I guess but thats my view.

Angela


biff


Dec 13, 2001, 12:24 PM
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The first time I went climbing outdoors I knew better than to hang-dog on a route.

Here is my situation, and my response.

I was climbing outdoors for the first time with 2 other people, one stronger and one weaker than I. The stronger climber, had tried a bold new plan once before, and felt he was strong enough to lead it. He made it up just fine with no falls, and I lowered him to the ground from the anchors. Since it was an overhanging/traversing route, the draws had to be left it so that the second wouldn't deck. After my slightly weaker partner had 2 go's at it and couldn't make it past the second draw, it was up to me to make it to the top to retrieve our draws.

I made it up to the 5th draw after restarting from falling after the 3rd on my first attempt. My arms were so pumped that I couldn't make a fist. I hung there after the 2 meter fall for about 15 seconds and noticed that there was I guy watching me, he looked like he was eyeing the route for the next attempt. So I asked him if he was waiting for the route, he said yes, but he said politly that he was having a good time watching me struggle anyways. I really wanted to get to the top even if I hung once, atleast to get the draws. I reached out to the rock pulled myself in and gave it one more go, and had another 2 meter fall. I asked my belay to lower me to the ground, a little dissapointed, but none the less excited about my accomplishment.

The guy after us lead the route, using the draws that I didn't remove, and replaced them with his own on the way down.

so at the end of the day, no gear was lost, and nobody was pissed off. Its all about communication. If you are going to get pissed off at someone, let them know politely that you are getting pissed, maybe by asking them how long they are going to take or something. Unless they are a bonehead thell get the hint and come down. If they don't come down, they are irrational and getting pissed off at them probably wont get you anything except a slashed tire or a chalk bag of rocks in the head; just smile and walk away .. that rock will be there another day


[ This Message was edited by: biff on 2001-12-13 12:29 ]


bigevilgrape


Dec 13, 2001, 12:39 PM
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its a matter of style. if you fall and get right back on, no big deal just don't sit there for five minutes. i do have a problem with the climb, rest, climb, rest method of climbing, why should you give up on a climb (especialy in a gym) just becase of a fall. The best way to get better is to learn from your mistakes, if you fall just get right back on and finish it.


dhoyne


Dec 13, 2001, 12:51 PM
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I agree with the idea of communication. If noone's waiting to try a route, so what if you spend some time trying to figure it out. That's how we get better. But if there's people waiting to climb, give it your best, then step aside. Many times walking away from a climb then trying it later will yield a successful climb.


Partner missedyno


Dec 13, 2001, 12:55 PM
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well then, don't let someone climb on your rope if you aren't sure if they climb the same way as you. you could say "yeah, climb it but get your own belayer" or "climb it but first fall and you're coming down."

it's all about communication, boys and girls! don't worry about pulling someone off your climb!

everyone has different climbing styles, technique, bla bla bla. they also have different ways of doing things. if you're not into takes, falls and hangdogging, say so.

one time, my friends put me on a climb that was rather difficult for me. i fought them on it and said i couldn't do it, but a few takes, hangdogs and whatever later, i made it to the top. it was such a struggle but i learned alot. i fell, but i got back on and stuck the moves. i fell, i flailed, i begged to be let back down so i could sulk about my failure and still not interfere with the far superior climbers i was with.
when i finished that climb, i was still happy. i'm not going to run around saying i sent it or anything, more of an "i dragged my ass up the climb" it was 90 feet, which takes alot for endurance for a person straight out of the gym.

don't climb with beginners if you don't want to deal with beginner stuff. stick with the pros. i speak for other beginners when i say we expect that.


Partner jules


Dec 13, 2001, 1:05 PM
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When I first started climbing I would stop occasionally because I was in crappy shape, and I would be panting and need the rest if I wanted to stay conscious. But it's another thing to stop constantly... that's just lame.


passthepitonspete


Dec 13, 2001, 2:54 PM
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Ooze on, Mr. Pustule.

Haven't I seen you somewhere before, like over towards the right side of the Periodic Table?

Cheers,

Dr. Pee'd On (who is also a chemical engineer)


Partner rrrADAM


Dec 13, 2001, 3:39 PM
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Quote:PTPP said...

"When I read, "Hanging for a rest in the middle of a climb," the first thing I thought was, "that's cheating."

I don't make a practice of hangdogging."


If you don't free climb anymore, you hang on every piece and never climb the rock. As an Aid climber you climb the gear. Is this correct ???


rrrADAM


decked


Dec 13, 2001, 3:51 PM
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i climb with newbys and i climb with people 2 grades above me. i get both sides of the story but if i hang i dident climb it clean.
climb on


bigevilgrape


Dec 13, 2001, 4:46 PM
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The person who was on your rope was mostlikly a bigginer with a lot to learn, the think i have always enjoyed about climbng is that people were so willing to help teach me and answer my questions you should talk to the climber (as long as your comforitable doing so) just make sure you respect them.


ktclimb


Dec 13, 2001, 5:29 PM
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is there a climbing god, who comes down on high and if we don't climb the "correct" way before we die, he then judges us up in heaven? Give me a break already! I have seen people hang dog, and I have seen great climbers climb with style. I personally dont' judge other people's climbing abilities (or try not to) because I am NOT god and it is not my business to tell anyone else how to do their thing. arg.
rhetorical question: If you were loud, and voiced your opinion in a loud and clear manner, and happened to piss some folks off becuase you were always voicing strong opinions in a blunt manner, would you then claim to be a victim of fate????? Just wondering......because personally, if I can't take it, I don't DISH IT OUT
Peace!

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