|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Apr 4, 2003, 3:13 AM
Post #1 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
(I posted this on Supertopo, but I'd really like to hear from the folks here too, since this topic gets a lot of my brain space of late...)
Mike posted this link to a really great TR in another thread:
http://ousleycreative.com/honey.html
He and his wife climbed the Muir, and it sounds like they had a hell of a great time.
In it he also comments on how difficult it can be for couples to survive wall stress.
For myself, wall climbing is something that I got into because I like the feeling of self-sufficiency that I get from moving my world along the wall bit by bit under my own power. I did my first wall with a much more experienced partner, and although it was the only way that I would be summitting anything with the level of experience that I had at that time, my feelings towards that climb have always been tainted with a sense of not really having done my share. Since then I have either climbed solo or sought partners with similar levels of experience.
For the last year, however, I have been a relationship with someone who climbs as hard or harder than anyone that I've ever met. You'd think that I'd be dying to go climb something bigger and harder than I could do without him. However, I just can't bring myself to take away that selfish experience of looking out for myself on something scarey. A lot of that disappears when I hear a "My God, sweetie, be CAREful" float up from the belay. It's even worse when I simply know that's what he's thinking so I allow myself to retreat when with another partner I'd have been too ashamed to do so or when by myself it wouldn't have been an option. The scariest part of any wall for me is the commitment factor. Even if I lead the cruxes (which on the walls I climb aren't really that dangerous), the commitment factor is reduced by orders of magnitude when there is someone as experienced as he is on the team. So, thus far, we haven't done any walls together, although we plan to do one eventually...hopefully...
I noticed that in Mike's TR they got along, but he was also the only one leading, so there was probably less of a power struggle than there might have been between two partners who were trying to share the leading and who needed to share equal amount of responsibility for all aspects of the climb in order to fully enjoy it or feel fully engaged in it. (Note: I am in no way criticizing his wife's choice to follow, just noting that when I am following and not leading there is less friction than when I want full partnership status in spite of my lesser qualifications...)
For those of you who do climb walls with your sweety, do you share things equally even if you are at different level? I'm interested in hearing other people's experiences, because I'd love to learn how to drop my own baggage more easily and enjoy my favorite thing and favorite person at the same time. No doubt, each would help me to learn a lot about the other.
|
|
|
|
|
climbhigher
Apr 4, 2003, 3:52 AM
Post #2 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 6, 2002
Posts: 224
|
I have no experience with what you are talking about. But that was a great article i read. Thanks for posting it. Cheers, Chris.
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Apr 4, 2003, 5:54 AM
Post #3 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
The only experience I had climbing a wall with a girlfriend was very bad. I swore I would never date a climbing girl again! Part of the problem was that she lied to me me about her actual ability, and I trusted her. I guess the main lesson's I learned involved trusting people to easily. I have since realised that this girl was simply a horrible person and that climbing was just something she thought was cool for awhile, in other words, not all climber girls are bad. I guess my only advice to you would be to be completely honest with yourself and your partner. Figure out the whole climb in advance, who is leading which pitch what ssystems are "we" going to use, and then stick to it. I would hope this would eliminate power struggles and make both memebers feel like they pulled their own weight.
good luck!
josh
|
|
|
|
|
addiroids
Apr 4, 2003, 7:17 AM
Post #4 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 11, 2001
Posts: 1046
|
Never done a true wall with a girl (soon hopefully) but let's get Pete's input on this one. I know of a certain someone who climbed the WF of LT in the Valley with him last year. I know they had fun because she was still with him that night when they got down and I fed them Bailey's and Guinness.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
|
|
|
|
|
phreakdigital
Apr 4, 2003, 7:27 AM
Post #5 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2002
Posts: 228
|
for flamer...why would you big wall with someone you hadn't climbed with before? and as for climbing with a hunny; I am considering doing some walls with my gf but we have some work to do still before we get there. and some money to give to the gear makers. lol
|
|
|
|
|
dirko
Apr 4, 2003, 1:37 PM
Post #6 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 5, 2002
Posts: 374
|
I passed Mike somewhere around the 12th pitch of Muir and it looked like they were having a grand time. The double portaledge they were sporting was a wedding present.
Now my g/f wants to climb El Cap and I'm all for it but while we have people chemistry I'm not sure that we have wall chemistry. People do walls with people they would never marry, so I'm sure it works the other way around. It's weird.
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Apr 4, 2003, 6:44 PM
Post #7 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
It's a long story and we had climbed together a little. I'm not going to go into a bunch of details....Besides I know tons of people who have climbed walls with people they haven't climbed other stuff with.
josh
|
|
|
|
|
janeothejungle
Apr 4, 2003, 6:50 PM
Post #8 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2003
Posts: 26
|
I can only offer my meager experience.
I went on a trip to put up a new wall route with a guy I was friends with (and had the potential to be more) but once we got on the wall he seemed to do a personality flip and I was relegated to belay slave. He wouldn't let me do my fair share and acted like I was a total idiot. Yes, he had more experience but I am not a total bumbly and would have loved to get out on the sharp end. He totaly crushed my self confidence and by the end of the trip I had no desire to climb with him again. After that I've taken to solo projects just so I don't have to deal with overbearing partners. Maybe if the right guy came along, I'd consider trying again.
In the big picture, however, I imagine it depends on the 2 people involved. If you have a strong relationship and a fair amount of patience, I say go for it. As long as you talk it through before you head up and work out your systems, I think it could be a sweet experience.
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Apr 4, 2003, 9:53 PM
Post #9 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
This is pretty much the same post I made on Supertopo in the same therad, but let me add that the Muir was the best route I have done on the Captain... coincidence??
Em Holland and I climbed Muir together. We took about the same amount of time to the top (~14 days including rest days on the ground), although we shared leads. Got along well enough that after a few day's rest, we ticked off NWF Half Dome.
Although Em doesn't climb free or aid as hard as I do, the most serious climbs I have ever done have been with her. No one could ask for a more solid partner.
Brutus
|
|
|
|
|
passthepitonspete
Apr 7, 2003, 4:15 AM
Post #10 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
|
Wall climbing is like marriage - it's for better or for worse.
[Fortunately, wall climbing can include an immediate and lawyer-free divorce upon reaching the base after a successful ascent and descent]
But when you're on the wall, you must love and respect your partner, even when you did not have the good sense to have chosen a good partner in the first place.
And Paul's right...... 8)
|
|
|
|
|
apollodorus
Apr 7, 2003, 8:30 AM
Post #11 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2002
Posts: 2157
|
This is from a BMT (Big Marriage Theorist): maybe the best thing is to do a wall before you get married. That way, you're there, in the Pressure Cooker, and can apprise each other's ability to deal with it. If you can survive that sort of situation, the rest is downhill.
And, if things don't work out, you can part ways afterwards amicably without the lawyers selling all your gear to pay their fees.
"Vegas likes to think that they invented the seven-day marriage. Wrong. El Capitan invented the seven-day marriage." - Dr. Johnson
|
|
|
|
|
hollyclimber
Apr 10, 2003, 9:00 PM
Post #12 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 27, 2002
Posts: 124
|
Well, I will throw my 2 cents in...
I have done various walls with four different partners, all of them men. One of them my boyfriend. First wall-partner and I did not get along well. There were a variety of reasons, definitely some male/female issues. We have always been and continue to be friends and non-wall climbing partners, but no more walls with him. Next wall partner, who I did a few routes with and lots of climbing, we did pretty well on the wall together. Had a good time most of the time, but some issues from time to time. Ultimately, after one incident on a long alpine climb, I decided not to climb anything committing with him anymore.
Next two wall partners were awesome. The third was my boyfriend and it was the best time I had ever had on a wall. After the first day I was amazed at how much of a difference respecting and enjoying your partner makes in the overall enjoyment of the climb. But, I seriously think this is all interpersonal dynamics and that it isn't so much about him being my boyfriend as that we had a similar climbing style, attitude and had a great time. Next wall partner on the same trip was a guy that I had just met, but through friends, and we also had a great time. I would climb another wall with these last two guys (including my boyfriend) anytime. But, the first two, while we are friends, never again.
Really, there is something about the interpersonal dynamic that determines if you can have a good time with someone on a wall I think. And, I don't think whether or not they are your SO makes the determination. I have seen so many people go at each other on the wall, both couples and all-guy teams. I would say know your partner, climb together in a stressful situation if possible (a safely created on is one where you are trying to do something in a day that is not easily done in a dey) and that is when you find out if you can get along.
And, for the original issue on being self-reliant-I have the same issue. My solution is to spend some time climbing with people who are more experienced then me, during which you can't help but realize that they may have contributed more than yourself to the overall success of the climb, and time climbing with people where I have more experience and end up having to do their leads if they need it and I end up with more of the contribution to the success. You learn and grow from both situations.
cheers,
holly
|
|
|
|
|
atg200
Apr 10, 2003, 10:34 PM
Post #13 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 4317
|
I've not yet done a full on wall with my girlfriend, but we did do a mostly aid grade IV desert tower together. she doesn't have nearly the experience that i do, but learned quickly and impressed the hell out of me going for it leading her first aid pitch. we'll be swinging leads on our next big route, and i have no shame whatsoever in sending her up the balancy free pitches i would whip all over.
i enjoyed the article, but one person doing all the leading on a route as long as the muir just seems wierd. i don't mind climbing with people more or less experienced than me, but at least attempting to divide up the leading seems fair.
i've also had good experiences getting on long big routes with people i have never met before. just had a blast doing phantom sprint on echo tower in the fishers with grippedclimber, who i had only met the night before in a bar in denver. on the other hand i've had meltdowns with people i have been friends with for years on long routes, so you never know. not much you can do but take a chance.
|
|
|
|
|
calamity_chk
Apr 11, 2003, 2:37 AM
Post #14 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2002
Posts: 7994
|
my answer: not yet, but soon. i actually met my boyfriend on an aid climb and look forward to doing something as intense as a wall with him. he's incredibly patient and a wonderful teacher .. and not too bad at sandbagging me either
.. that said, i'll probably end up getting the nasty scary pitches since i weigh a buck o' five and, generally speaking, am not smart enough to know when i should be scared.
|
|
|
|
|
skywalker
Apr 14, 2003, 9:43 PM
Post #15 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 13, 2002
Posts: 52
|
my girl friend and I have climbed a wall in Zion that was totally within both of our abilities but we did have that worry factor when each of us were leading. We shared the work, had lots of laughs, and a little stress. We decided that we enjoy climbing together, including walls but if the climbing is serious, we would rather find our own partners so we don't worry quite so much. Sorry to all my other partners, I love you guys but hey lets not think too much about it.
|
|
|
|
|
ergophobe
Apr 29, 2003, 6:47 AM
Post #16 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2002
Posts: 150
|
Brutus made that post before Em kicked his butt on Bad Ass Momma and embarrassed him so... no wait, that was Bad Ass Momma that kicked the butts of all of us. Still nursing a sore body muscle.
Anyway, to the original question - I've done one wall and it was with my wife. I have trouble getting used to the idea of doing a wall with anyone else. Okay, yeah, we had one really bad moment. I wasn't crying, but wanted to go down. She was crying but didn't want to go down. She won and we kept going. We weren't mad at each other, by the way, but stressed by trying to do the Salathe after not climbing for months. In general, a lot better experience than sharing a poop bag with some random guy.
I think the key thing for a couple is that the stronger climber has to encourage the weaker climber to keep leading near his/her limit. It's hard because I would rather get hurt than see her get hurt (or at least in theory, I might feel differently after the fact). You have to fight that though, and both be willing to let the other person climb to the limit of his or her abilities (or desires if that's appropriate). If you keep that in mind, I think it's great climbing as a couple and the longer the route the better it is.
Tom
|
|
|
|
|
ergophobe
Apr 29, 2003, 7:25 AM
Post #17 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2002
Posts: 150
|
Oh yeah, part II - do we share things equally. Well, it's a little different for us, since our abilities sound a lot closer than you and your guy. Anyway, I don't share equally with any partner, not even my brother. We've climbed together at least once a year for 31 years, but one of us has always been better than the other (not always the same one, but we've never been exactly equal). If I see my partner suffering, I offer to carry more. If I see my partner whistling along while I suffer, I beg and plead to have him carry more. I think the whole nature of a team is that everyone gives to the best of their abilities, and that's what makes things equal.
BTW, I think one thing we do, usually without being explicit, is we claim climbs. Like she had a bug up her butt about the Third Pillar of Dana for a long time, so when we did it, it was understood that she would get to pick her pitches. I had a bug up my butt about the Salathe for a long time, so I think it was understood that I got to call the Hollow Flake (of course, if I did the route again I would call *not* leading the HF, but I didn't know that before the fact)..
And part III (this is 'the wife' butting in over here), I totally agree about negotiating who is going to do what ahead of time, so that you don't feel like you are not pulling your weight. However, if you only have 3 days of food and water, and you're falling behind schedule the incentive to let the stronger person lead can be overwhelming. Both partners realize that if they don't get a move on they are going to SUFFER, and avoiding that means the stronger one leads, and that sucks. So, when you're planning, I'd plan in a really leisurely pace. Spending time on the wall relaxing with someone you love isn't such a bad thing, and the heavy haul bag and extra vacation time buys you a bit of a buffer in terms of being sure that you have the time you need to do your thing, and not get dragged along behind. That said, the 'lets bring artichokes and boil them for dinner' (I'm not making this up) strategy that Bruce and Em used is just a wee bit too decadent for me to get my head around - but they had a good time...
Tom (and Theresa)
Shheeesh.... a guy can't even post in private. At least this forum allows edits so I can go back and say what I really think later! Just kidding...
|
|
|
|
|
crackaddict
Apr 30, 2003, 2:54 AM
Post #18 of 18
(4924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2000
Posts: 1279
|
Hey I have a question.
Maybe Pete can answer this.
Does doing a bigwall with an Inflatable Helga Doll count as doing a bigwall with your sweetie?
Just a thought!
|
|
|
|
|
|
