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traide
Apr 7, 2003, 3:49 AM
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There is something that has been really bothering me about Everest for several months, now, and I am wondering if anyone else has anything to say or has thought about it.
Not too long ago, summit attempts on Mt Everest have only been possible from the nepalese side of the mountain. This was largely due to the fact that tenets held by the Tibetan people disallowed climbing the mountain. In recent years, China has slowly taken over the nation of Tibet, in the name of "poverty alleviation." Meanwhile, the world does nothing, even though the Dahli Lama himself stated that the Tibetan people do not want to be a part of China. I could go more into this, but after having personal relations with a few exiled tibetans living in the US, thinking about this topic just angers me.
Shouldn't we, as climbers, respect the wishes of the Tibetan people and not climb on that side? China has begun making Everest into a tourist trap from the Tibetan side. They are making PROFIT from the suffering of an entire people.
Any thoughts on this?
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bhudda
Apr 7, 2003, 3:58 AM
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My thoughts are that in a perfect world where nothing changed and utopia riegned all you said would be great. Except Tibet is not going to be liberated and the people are going to benefit most from international travelers understanding thier culture and situation, plus the tourism dollars will help the local economy even if the red bastard in Beijing are getting rich off the climing permits. So it seems to me that the lesser of two evils is to visit and climb the Tibetan north face of Everest.
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wildtrail
Apr 7, 2003, 4:00 AM
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In reply to: There is something that has been really bothering me about Everest for several months, now, and I am wondering if anyone else has anything to say or has thought about it. Not too long ago, summit attempts on Mt Everest have only been possible from the nepalese side of the mountain. This was largely due to the fact that tenets held by the Tibetan people disallowed climbing the mountain. In recent years, China has slowly taken over the nation of Tibet, in the name of "poverty alleviation." Meanwhile, the world does nothing, even though the Dahli Lama himself stated that the Tibetan people do not want to be a part of China. I could go more into this, but after having personal relations with a few exiled tibetans living in the US, thinking about this topic just angers me. Shouldn't we, as climbers, respect the wishes of the Tibetan people and not climb on that side? China has begun making Everest into a tourist trap from the Tibetan side. They are making PROFIT from the suffering of an entire people. Any thoughts on this?
First sentence of your last paragraph.
Yes, we should respect those wishes. Then again, we shouldn't refer to it as Mt. Everest. It's not some snobby Englishman,s mountain. It is either Sagarmatha or Chomolungma.
Just as Denali is not McKinley. :wink:
Yes, respect their wishes.
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traide
Apr 7, 2003, 4:05 AM
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Points taken
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farmerc
Apr 7, 2003, 4:09 AM
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Traide wrote: "In recent years, China has slowly taken over the nation of Tibet, in the name of 'poverty alleviation.'"
Slowly? I really don't think that Tibet was taken over "slowly" I think it is something more along the lines of "they were invaded during the Chinese "cultural revolution" and to top it off China committed acts that are considered by the UN to be genocide. And if anyone says, "oh, the Tibetans are for Chinese rule now..." remember that the Chinese government made people move to Tibet to "dilute" Tibetan culture.
I absolutely agree with you that all China is doing is making Tibet a "tourist trap." If a culture objects to climbing in a certain place, then respect it.
Sorry if I sound angry...I just believe in what I am saying (that..and its late and I'm grumpy..hehe)
~Chris
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traide
Apr 7, 2003, 4:13 AM
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farmec -
why would you say, then, that the un has done absolutely nothing, even though there have been many, documented, reliable reports about what has been going on?
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petsfed
Apr 7, 2003, 4:21 AM
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Traide:
As I recall, until the year that Hillary finally topped the beast, the only way to go was the Tibetan side. Then the forbidden kingdom of Nepal seized on a revenue source that they could not resist, proving once more that almost anyone's ethics are for sale. I am not aware of any Tibetan cultural belief that forbids climbers on it. If anything, it is the Nepalese Sherpa culture that frowns on such a thing. And we can all tell how that worked out. If your arguments for not climbing on the Tibetan side were based on facts, they would be legitimate. Try again.
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traide
Apr 7, 2003, 4:34 AM
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that's true, but if i am not mistaken, the tibetan side was closed shortly thereafter and not reopened until the chinese intervened late on?
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petsfed
Apr 7, 2003, 3:41 PM
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Actually, the Tibetan closure coincided with the Cultural Revolution. It is because the Chinese invaded Tibet that the north side of Everest was closed. For quite a while, only chinese could attempt that side.
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rockprodigy
Apr 7, 2003, 4:17 PM
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Think about what you're saying: You're trying to make an ethical appeal to Everest "Climbers" (an oxymoron)--people who are willing to use fixed ropes they didn't set, oxygen bottles they didn't carry, up a trail they didn't break, all the while posting on-line updates from an interenet cafe at 15,000 feet!
Have you completely lost your mind? or are you just naive?
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jhump
Apr 8, 2003, 11:35 PM
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Right on the money rockprodigy. Somewhere in the "pipeline of progression" from Aconcagua to Denali to Everest, the point of climbing is lost. People are going for the ultimate, the slam dunk. But employing the tactics you mentioned is like dunking off of a trampoline. To me it is hilarious. Then I remeber how these folks tash the mountain, and it becomes not so funny. The murder of the impossible.
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farmerc
Apr 9, 2003, 12:59 AM
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Traide wrote:
"farmec -
why would you say, then, that the un has done absolutely nothing, even though there have been many, documented, reliable reports about what has been going on?"
Uh..I dunno if you understood my point. Yes, there is large volume of research and reports by the UN into Chinese genocide in Tibet (by genocide I don't mean just killing, but also the other kinds of genocide as laid out by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) It is my understanding that that UN hasn't done anything but investigate it. If you know of any sources, books, websites (etc...) that you could point me to that actually show that something has/is being done, I would appreciate it.
~Chris
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njbourne
Apr 9, 2003, 1:50 AM
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Damn right JHump. Not bad for a greasy wop.
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micahmcguire
Apr 12, 2003, 5:13 AM
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hell no. the tibetans dont own the mountain just like no one really owns the land. everest has been there since before there were people, and will exist long after people have vanished. who are the tibetans to tell me that I can't climb their side of the tallest mountain in the world (and therefore something the whole world should have the right to see-thank goodness its just rather difficult getting there!)? thats just like people buying accesses to great hiking sport and closing them off. bullspit, utter bullspit. the tibetans can share.
oh, and rockprodigy and jhump, get real. you'd pay sherpas to carry one of the dozens of oxygen bottles you're gonna need on Everest too if you had the money, don't give me that tripe. if someone broke a trail and you knew it would be easier to follow it, you would. if someone set a rope and it goes right up the route you want to go, you would use that too. and if a nepalese man offers to port your gear for 5$ a day to feed his family, you would probably jump at the offer. as for the internet cafes, hey man, whatever can give you an edge on the weather (such as current satellite images and other things you can get off of the internet). and hey, if you had enough money to make that kind of advantage possible, I'd think you were a bit foolish not to use it. the last time I heard climbing Everest was still a pretty freakin hard thing to do, current weather forecasts or not.
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gooch
Apr 12, 2003, 7:21 PM
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China is devastating tibet and it's people
The UN is a joke. They are a bunch of politicians and diplomats that sit around talikng and politely arguing while people are being killed and tortured, their homes destroyed, their religion suppressed, their churches, temples, shrines destroyed.
Do a little research, or better yet go to tibet and see how the chinese treat the people of tibet. The UN will never do anything but what they do now...nothing.
*spits in general direction of UN*
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farmerc
Apr 12, 2003, 7:55 PM
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Gooch~
Thanks for backing me up :) I have already done the research to show that China has been committing genocide, what I was wondering was if Traide could show me some sources that show the UN has done something other than study the problem.
~Chris
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micahmcguire
Apr 13, 2003, 3:59 AM
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of course china has done awful things to the tibetan people, but hey, what do you seriously expect us to do, embargo china? ha! go to war against china? HAHA!! all we can do is talk, but in the words of Pink Floyd "all we need is to just keep talking"
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gooch
Apr 15, 2003, 9:52 PM
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Farmerc, The chinese have killed 1/6th of the tibetan people. ONE SIXTH.
They have destroyed in excess of 5000 churches and temples
If this is not genocide I fail to see what is
The UN strictly forbids acts of genocide Article 206A (III) signed in 1948 yet the Chinese continue to enjoy ost favoured trading status with the US and other countries instead on the sanctions that would be imposed against a lesser nation
Again my opinion is the UN has no balls, and fails to be a deterrent to anyone any longer. It has dropped to the same state as the american and canadian judicial system in that even if you are guilty you can delay, delay, delay and delay.
Like a policeman in the UK "Stop! Or I'll say stop again."
not quite the same as "Stop! or I'll shoot."
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micahmcguire
May 4, 2003, 5:19 PM
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and again smart guy, just what the hell do you expect the UN to do about China? Try to make them stop by force? That would be called "World War 3" and millions more would surely die. Try to pressure them with embargos and such on their exports and whatever imports we could affect? Ha! With half the freakin world in China, and being mass-produced in China, yeah right. And what would that make us to the Chinese people, who themselves have done nothing to the Tibetan people? We'd be hated by an additional half the world's population. Well maybe if we get Jewel or someone to write a song and sing it to the Chinese....
Summer's coming and the UN isnt doing anything about it! Goddamn them!
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podunkclimber
May 5, 2003, 2:23 PM
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Hmmm my $.02, nothing about the Universe we live in is stagnate, and while I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing that Tibet is being integrated into the modern world, that doesn't mean that I don't think there are issues with the current situation in Tibet. Sir Edmund Hillary did his greatest service to the Sherpas of Nepal by making sure that they had a say in their future, and the tools they would need to do so. Tibet deserves the same treatment, but China seems to be holding all the cards at this point.
As far as whether or not to climb from the Tibetan side, at this point it is a personal choice. To me that is only one of many ethical choices to be made when considering that trip, and many of those others to me are far more important. At this point I probably would not go Everest even if I had a free ride. Everest was an icon of climbing when it was a deeply personal journey, and the fruit of much labor and sacrifice. I am more concerned with the quality of my expeditions, and trips rather than the hight of the peak or it's fame. So to put it simply, if you are climbing Everest to say you've done it, you are missing the point, and to me those ethics are very much in line with the concern for the welfare of the people of that region.
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dingus
May 5, 2003, 3:01 PM
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Most of the big peak climbers, when push comes to shove, will totally ignore politics in favor of their objective. If access to Everest was strictly through Tibet climbers the world over would swallow their reservations and put in for the Chinese visas. And we all know it.
In terms of the mountain is called this or the mountain is called that...
People who say it's Chomo or Saga or whatever, would have a stronger leg to stand on if that happened to speak the languages from which those names extend. Everest is but the commonly recognized English name for the same lump of stone and ice. Call it whatever you will... it changes nothing.
Though I do understand the respect thing involved with both the name and the ethnic cleansing that has occured in Tibet, it's all over but the shouting on both fronts. People will continue to call it Everest, China will continue to occupy Tibet and climbers will continue to flock to the mountain to try and climb it.
Ethics? On the world's highest peak? You must be joking!
DMT
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micahmcguire
May 5, 2003, 5:42 PM
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agrees with dingus. Go dingus.
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apoorva
May 15, 2003, 2:50 AM
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1. The Tibetan culture and people have been ruthlessly destroyed. This is a fact, recognise it. Having the attitude that "oh so now what, who cares and we can't do anything about it" is plain ignorant.
2. There are other solutions apart from war, in this case. If the half of you who post here have bothered to find out anything about this. Support the Dalai Lama's government in exile. They, if nothing else, can at least save tibetan culture and heritage before it is all lost forever to the world.
3. So just because you don't speak the language, it gives you the right to mock their culture and the name they've given the mountain? Who the hell do you think you are?
4. 'Climb' the mountain, but if you do it on the backs of Sherpas, you're a tourist, not a climber.
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maohaihuang
May 18, 2003, 5:33 PM
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In reply to: Support the Dalai Lama's government in exile.
Sorry it's not the Dalai Lama's G.I.E. There is considerable internal schism within the G.I.E. which reeks good ole political power struggle at the expense of real issues.
I know some "in exile" people. They dish out propaganda and bend facts in their favour just as quickly as those they have a cause against. I don't believe most of what they say. methinks both sides are the same people happen to be in opposite camps.
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brutusofwyde
May 18, 2003, 8:03 PM
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In reply to: methinks both sides are the same people happen to be in opposite camps.
Hmmm.
I don't recall hearing about any Tibetans burning major cultural landmarks and monastaries or temples in the heart of China, nor have Tibetans imprisoned, raped and murdered Chinese religeous leaders in the recent past.
Both sides are the same??
Sorry, but if the atrocities weren't so horrible, that wouldn't even pass the straight-face test.
:cry:
brutus
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