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hippie_dreams
Apr 14, 2003, 4:31 PM
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How high have you fallen from and hit the ground? This could be on a highball boulder problem, a solo, or a sport/ trad climb gone wrong...
Just this weekend I was climbing at the Red River Gorge in KY and I took a lead fall at the last bolt of a 40ft climb. My partner was using a Gri-Gri to belay me with (I'll never trust those again - now that I've experienced and heard one too many horror stories) and it wouldn't lock up. It was even checked before I began the climb and everything appeared to be normal. Needless to say, I hit the ground from about 30ft up. Luckily, I was barely touched. I have a small cut on the top of my head from where I rolled back and bumped it on a Nalgene bottle on the ground. It bleed pretty good, but all things considered I am extremely lucky.
I want to thank the climbing gods for watching over me and ask if anyone else would like to share a similar story.
Be safe, :wink:
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krillen
Apr 14, 2003, 4:43 PM
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what diameter rope were you using? what did your belayer do when you fell?
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baldguy
Apr 14, 2003, 4:44 PM
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In reply to: My partner was using a Gri-Gri to belay me with (I'll never trust those again - now that I've experienced and heard one too many horror stories) and it wouldn't lock up.
I'm confused. Was your partner's brake hand on the rope and you still decked? Or was s/he relying on the device to catch your fall? What was the diameter of the rope?
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hippie_dreams
Apr 14, 2003, 4:47 PM
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Just a quick follow up:
My partner was my girlfriend (50lbs less than me).
We were using a 10mm rope.
She had her hand on the break end of the rope, but not in break position; it ripped it out of her hand when I fell and she couldn't grab hold fast enough. It was probably some of her error not holding on.
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deadfish
Apr 14, 2003, 4:49 PM
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What was your determination on why the gri-gri did not lock up? Unless you were outside the parameters of the device, or had it threaded backwards, there isn't too much to go wrong with it. Your partner, on the other hand, should be able to hold a fall with a gri-gri whether it locks up or not assuming he/she is attentive and uses proper technique. Most incidents (in my experience) with people being dropped with gri-gris are due to partners who shouldn't be belaying, and either hold the cam open or try to catch the fall with their hand on the active strand of the rope, keeping the cam from engaging, while not paying enough attention to their brake hand.
I personally would never lead climb with a gri-gri unless I was using it to bring up a second, it's hard to feed slack without endangering the leader, and the static catch if you fall unnecessarily loads the pro...but if you do decide this is the way to go and assuming the device was used properly, you might want to look into re-educating your partner.
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drkodos
Apr 14, 2003, 5:00 PM
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A Gri-gri can fail to work even on larger diameter ropes and here's how:
When used to repeatedly lower, a fast running rope tends to "Glaze" (the sheath partially melts, then re-soidifies). This "glaze" can prevent the the internal cam from "locking" onto ropes.
A gri-gri is not an infallable tool.
Personally, I think the Gri-gri is one of the worst things to happen to climbing.
A majority of Gri-gri users/supporters don't take the time to understand the device fully, fail to learn all the pluses and minuses of its use, and just buy into the idea that it is "bomb proof" and will "catch a fall" by itself.
Gri-gri = Brain off
More and more gyms rely exclusively on the Gri-gri instead of taking the time to teach proper belay technique. The Gri-gri has done more to accelerated the growth of the "dumb" sport climber than any other single device or event.
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orangekyak
Apr 14, 2003, 5:01 PM
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glad to hear that althought you learned the hard way, at least your on rc.com right now, and not in a hospital or worse.
it's not your girlfriend's fault. as the climber, it is ultimately your responsibility that all the equipment satisfies your personal safety standards. you chose to climb using a device for something other than its design. not her fault.
i'm not proud of myself for pointing out your mistakes, but you did submit your story to a public forum.
enjoy your atc.
o.k.
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kalcario
Apr 14, 2003, 5:02 PM
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* Just this weekend I was climbing at the Red River Gorge in KY and I took a lead fall at the last bolt of a 40ft climb. My partner was using a Gri-Gri to belay me with (I'll never trust those again - now that I've experienced and heard one too many horror stories) and it wouldn't lock up.*
Were you pulling rope up to clip the bolt?
Was she pulling back on the handle or holding the cam down with her thumb?
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krillen
Apr 14, 2003, 5:12 PM
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If your GF has trouble opperating GRIGRI, how do you expect her to opperate friction device that requires her to lock off herself? If you are going to have to teach her how to use it, why not teach her how to use the GRIGRI that you already have?
Additionally ATC type devices are harder to use on small diameter ropes, she may have more trouble than you 'd think with an ATC as well.
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radistrad
Apr 14, 2003, 5:49 PM
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I dont believe in a break hand on the gri gri, its not necessary.
I am right handed. I cradle the gri gri in my left hand so the cam release (where the handle pivots out) is near my left thumb. I only have my thumb on the cam release when I am watching my partner and pulling rope out with my right hand. At all other times I keep my thumb away from the gri gri. Train you muscles for this action and it will become second nature.
My school of though is that the gri gri works, but not with a hand on the cam release.
It sure must be hard to feed that gri gri out when you have a break hand on the rope and trying to pull and push it through, did you get a jerky belay where she had to hold the cam open and fuss with the rope?
Learn your equipment as it is fundamental to safe climbing.
Also I am not sure about glazing the rope either, after 11 years of climbing I have not seen this. I was in Yosemite on friday and I did a 200' single rope rappel using my gri gri and had no issues with glazing, sure the gri gir was hot, but not hot enough to melt my rope.
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kalcario
Apr 14, 2003, 5:59 PM
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I keep a hand on the brake end of the rope when lead belaying with a grigri, but mainly for appearance's sake because it freaks people out when you let go. It will hold a fall if you let go of it. Period. If it didn't I would have left a trail of dead bodies all over the Western U.S and Europe. But those unschooled in its use find this hard to accept. So I keep a brake hand on.
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renobdarb
Apr 14, 2003, 5:59 PM
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In reply to: Personally, I think the Gri-gri is one of the worst things to happen to climbing.
giddy-up....
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oudinardin
Apr 14, 2003, 6:06 PM
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tubes...
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hippie_dreams
Apr 14, 2003, 6:23 PM
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I can agree somewhat with all of you - I'm not totally convinced that the gri-gri "just didn't lock up", but that's what witnesses said, so I have to believe them. I've never heard of the glaze, but I guess its a possibility - when I get home I'll look closely at it and report back what I find. Although, it did seem to function normally when I examined it afterwards.
From what everyone that saw had told me, she didn't even keep her hand over the cam device - it just didn't open for some reason. Her hand was in the brake position however. I wasn't clipping at the time. I was about 3ft above my last clip and when I fell, slack came through the gri-gri and the ground stopped me.
It was definately my fault for letting the gri-gri be her choice of belay device, but she is definately experinced enough to know that she should keep her hand on brake, even with a gri-gri. We've talked about how to use them, and what actions should be taken in certain situations. So the training and experience were definately there.
This is how I look at it- I take full responsibility for everything. I understood the risk involved with climbing. I understood that something like that could happen. I also understood that to me, the benifits of climbing out-weighed the risk involved. I'm just thanking my lucky stars that I lived to see another day of climbing.
As for my girlfriend, I don't think she will be belaying for quite sometime. I can't say that I blame her, I would probably feel the same way in that situation. But the good news is that I have plenty of other experienced friends to give me a catch. Plus, most of them weigh a little more than her.
All I can say is that the purpose of this post was to raise awareness about belay devices and belay attentiveness, to show people the risk involved with climbing, and give others a chance to share similar stories.
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corey
Apr 14, 2003, 6:23 PM
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I'm confused. Why would one say it's BAD to use a GriGri while someone is on lead? I thought the whole purpose was a "guaranteed" safety if something should happen to the belayer (like being hit in the head by falling rock or gear and knocked unconscious). I mean, the GriGri auto-locks w/o belayer input. I'm new to roped climbing, so I'm sure to be corrected if I'm wrong here, but I've used ATC's and my climbing partner prefers people to use a GriGri when he's leading (sport only, maybe there's the difference??). Personally, I'm beginning to really like the GriGri for it's ease of use (once I figured out the best/quickest way to feed line when needed and still be confident I was in control of the rope). The only limitation I've seen or read about is if the rope is too small a diameter to "chock" when the cam-over is activated? When I'm lowering with the GriGri my "brake" hand isn't really doing any braking, I just run it over the rope out of habit from the ATC and "final safety". I'm thinking of buying one myself, and would appreciate the comments.
Oh, yeah, the post....well, I took a 30'+ "jump" while bouldering a few years back when I ran out of forearm strength 5' from the top. 3 broken metatarsals in my right foot (stupid root or rock I didn't see on the ground) and a bloody nose when my knee hit my face as I absobed the fall in my legs (no place to roll to, as the ground sloped away and was surrounded by other rocks). Yeah, yeah, I know, I made some poor judgement calls that day. :oops:
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robbovius
Apr 14, 2003, 6:32 PM
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In reply to: *clip* All I can say is that the purpose of this post was to raise awareness about belay devices and belay attentiveness, to show people the risk involved with climbing, and give others a chance to share similar stories.
really? I thought it was another in the long history of threads that slag the grigri for the belayer's mistakes. no?
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kalcario
Apr 14, 2003, 6:41 PM
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* It was definately my fault for letting the gri-gri be her choice of belay device, but she is definately experinced enough to know that she should keep her hand on brake, even with a gri-gri. We've talked about how to use them, and what actions should be taken in certain situations. So the training and experience were definately there.*
No, it was'nt.
If she really was grabbing the brake end of the rope, and not de-activating the cam with her thumb, and not pulling back on the black handle when you fell, then there's only one other possibility. The grigri was threaded backwards.
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kalcario
Apr 14, 2003, 6:47 PM
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*well, I took a 30'+ "jump" while bouldering a few years back when I ran out of forearm strength 5' from the top. 3 broken metatarsals in my right foot (stupid root or rock I didn't see on the ground)*
You jumped off a 3 story building and you're blaming your broken foot on not seeing the roots and rocks at the base? Must've been a slab fall, or not really 30', or you'd have been much worse off...
*Yeah, yeah, I know, I made some poor judgement calls that day.*
Sounds like you're still making 'em.
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renobdarb
Apr 14, 2003, 7:28 PM
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My big beef with the Grigri is it takes primary safety responsibility from the belayer and puts it into the equipment, and when that happens, people tend to get lazy... Every person i've talked to who uses a Grigri says something along the lines of, "If you're belayer isn't paying attention and you fall, the Grigri will catch you"... at which point i suggest that you get a new belayer who pays attention... who wants a belayer who isn't watching you??? yes, Petzl has suceeded in making an almost fall-proof belay device... they have also suceeded in making the heaviest, bulkiest and most cumbersome belay device on the planet... i guess i just like the simplicity of an ATC or figure eight or variation... this is only one person's opinion, so don't let your head explode over it...
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bandycoot
Apr 14, 2003, 7:38 PM
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kalcario: excellent possibility. While I personally don't like the grigri for some reasons stated above and other reasons of my own, I definitely agree that there is NO WAY it would NOT catch a fall if the break hand is in the right position, and the lever is not held down with the other hand, on a 10mm rope. Maybe the rope was "glazed". I've never heard of that before, but I doubt that is the case.
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mreardon
Apr 14, 2003, 7:44 PM
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"If she really was grabbing the brake end of the rope, and not de-activating the cam with her thumb, and not pulling back on the black handle when you fell, then there's only one other possibility. The grigri was threaded backwards."
You're wrong Joe. Threaded backwards it still acts like an ATC and holding the brake hand will work just fine. We've tested them that way as well as under other conditions.
As for accidents, I was on Urban Struggle at Malibu, my wife had learned how to use the grigri the week before. She is a great belay with the ATC, but my leading was getting more intense and I like the dynamic belay for longer falls. In teaching her the dynamic belay, I told her to "let go" meaning to let go with her body and let me drag her up a bit for the softer fall. When she didn't get it, I skipped a couple bolts on a climb at Owen's and jumped which launched her in the air and I got the soft fall. Unfortunatelyshe interpreted this as meaning to "let go" with her brake hand as well as slightly jumping up when I weight the rope.
At Malibu a week later I went to the fourth bolt, came off at the crux and slightly sat down on the rope (two feet away from the bolt). My wife leaned up to soften what she thought might be a fall and let go of the brake hand. Several things happened:
1. Rope was only 9.7 which is smaller than the recommended 10mm;
2. Slight drag on the rope against the rock and wife standing up to soften the fall gave a slow pull on the grigri;
3. Not holding onto the brake hand;
4. Conclusion - I bounced on my back on the rocks below from 30-40 feet up. Luckily I walked away from the fall.
In the end it was my fault that she interpreted wrongly about letting go. You should never let go of the brake hand. Now I know you think you can let go of the brake hand with a 10mm or higher rope, but we saw this same slippage occur with two different 10.2mm new ropes when testing them and if the brake hand was not there, decking was going to happen.
In order for the grigri to lock up, it has to have a shock to pull the lever all the way up. If it only slightly goes up, it doesn't lock. Period. Anyone that doesn't hold on with the brake hand even when someone is just hanging there depumping is an idiot and an accident waiting to happen. Don't believe me, have someone hanging, then when they are ready to go, you stand up and have them sit down again. If there isn't enough shock to the system to lift the lever into full locking position, the rope will gently slide out until something stops it - like the brake hand! Grigris are safe when used properly (my wife only uses a grigri to belay me on trad and sport now), the people that use them tend not to be.
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kalcario
Apr 14, 2003, 7:49 PM
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*My big beef with the Grigri is it takes primary safety responsibility from the belayer and puts it into the equipment, and when that happens, people tend to get lazy*
This is like saying that auto-restraining seat belts in cars are a bad idea because the resulting safety enhancement factor makes you more likely to crash. Ever had a leader you were belaying fall because a hand or foothold broke? What if that chunk of rock (which is speeding earthwards at an accelerated rate because of the force that broke it off) hits the belayer in the head and the belayer lets go? Leader groundfalls-unless the belayer is using a grigri.
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hippie_dreams
Apr 14, 2003, 7:55 PM
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In reply to: If she really was grabbing the brake end of the rope, and not de-activating the cam with her thumb, and not pulling back on the black handle when you fell, then there's only one other possibility. The grigri was threaded backwards.
The Gri-gri wasn't threaded backwards - that was the first thing I looked for after I fell... well, I guess I felt the blood on my head first, then checked the gri-gri.
Anyhow, you guys are still missing the point of the post. I'm not knocking gri-gri's. I am saying if you use one, still beware that these things can happen. And, I'm opening the post up to stories of similar incidents to help others understand what can go wrong.
I personally don't enjoy them after a few bad experiences with them, but if they work for you, more power to you.
There's too many people that have posted that are a little too high strung to be climbers.... Most of the climbers I know are the most relaxed understanding individuals I've ever met. If you don't agree with something that's fine and understandable, but let's not get crazy worked up here. We all share the same interest.
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hippie_dreams
Apr 14, 2003, 8:02 PM
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In reply to: At Malibu a week later I went to the fourth bolt, came off at the crux and slightly sat down on the rope (two feet away from the bolt). My wife leaned up to soften what she thought might be a fall and let go of the brake hand. Several things happened: 1. Rope was only 9.7 which is smaller than the recommended 10mm; 2. Slight drag on the rope against the rock and wife standing up to soften the fall gave a slow pull on the grigri; 3. Not holding onto the brake hand; 4. Conclusion - I bounced on my back on the rocks below from 30-40 feet up. Luckily I walked away from the fall.
Thanks for understanding the point of the post.
Did you have any minor injuires from the fall? How long did it take before your wife was comfortable belaying again?
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renobdarb
Apr 14, 2003, 8:10 PM
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In reply to: What if that chunk of rock (which is speeding earthwards at an accelerated rate because of the force that broke it off) hits the belayer in the head and the belayer lets go? Leader groundfalls-unless the belayer is using a grigri.
Have you not been reading this thread??? Grigri's are not foolproof! they are operated by humans, who are, last i checked, imperfect beings... the person who started this thread clearly said the Grigri didn't lock up, and later stated that the belayer may not have know how to use it, or assumed that if the leader fell the Grigri would just take over and take care of everything...
In reply to: What if that chunk of rock (which is speeding earthwards at an accelerated rate because of the force that broke it off) hits the belayer in the head and the belayer lets go? Leader groundfalls-unless the belayer is using a grigri.
This is like saying that auto-restraining seat belts in cars completely elimates the possibility of a crash... this, of course, is laughable, because we all know the driver is ultimately the one responsible... Yes, Grigri's give a little more superficial safety, but, as i said before, ultimately they take the responsibility out of the belayer...
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