|
|
|
|
climbinganne
Apr 28, 2003, 1:07 AM
Post #1 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2002
Posts: 11679
|
First of all..i am not going to mention names...and i am very sorry to the family and friends of the "referenced" loved one's crosses, i am truly sorry for your loss...
as many of you are aware...a couple, three years ago a young lady died celebrating her birthday on top of chickies rock...although not climbing related we were all saddened by the news of her passing. Soon after her friends and or family erected a cross..bolted it into a strictly TRAD/topropable crag...yes...on a route...
http://www.fototime.com/...ddt=37739.0182625347
last thanksgiving a young man originally from the area returned home and took his life
three weeks ago, as i was walking by the "cross"...to my AMAZEMENT...there was another one erected...i assumed who it was for..i didn't walk down to the bouldering area to look...i really didnt want to see what i thought my eyes were looking at...yet another cross bolted on the wall... no one wants to climb over a cross!!!
so today...i am walking by..this time with a camera..over the past couple weeks i was so mad...mad that the county is allowing this to happen...i wanted to take pictures...
and there is a third cross????
http://www.fototime.com/...ddt=37739.0182730324
and it is for the same person and THEY CUT A TREE DOWN SO YOU CAN SEE THE CROSS BETTER....WTF WTF WTF WTF
http://www.fototime.com/...ddt=37739.0182838773
and LEFT it there...IT HIT AND MOVED OUR "BELAYSEAT"!!!!!!
http://www.fototime.com/...ddt=37739.0182950926
they just left it there...in front of the wall...
again. i would like to say i am really really sorry for the two young deaths..but folks..there have been many non-climbing related deaths due to suicide and neglegence at chickie's rock
WE CAN NOT ALLOW IT TO TURN INTO A GRAVEYARD!!!!
this isn't really fair to the others who don't have their personal shrines...as far as i see it...it "glorifies" these deaths
DIDN'T YOU PEEPS GET A TOMBSTONE????
i think the locals NEED to get together and see how we can have these removed NOW!!!!
PS...dude soloed chickie's rock today...5.3-5.6..jesus...all i kept thinking was...well he's a friigin climber...he'll surely get a cross... :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
awsclimber
Apr 28, 2003, 1:19 AM
Post #2 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 18, 2002
Posts: 118
|
Anne,
I agree completely. I was bothered by the first one, though it wasn't in the way too much. It truly is unfair for everyone visitng the park to be subject to those kind of memorials, and cutting down a tree just so that it can be seen better?! thats ridiculous. I am all for working to have the park service remove them, but it's going to be a very touchy issue and if approached too carelessly, even seemingly disrespectfully, the public could turn and there might even be an outcry for the closure of the cliff. As I said, i agree that they should be removed, but that should certainly be done only after discussing it with other people who use the park, not just climbers. by the way, if anyone sees this and wants to climb at chickies anytime in the next two weeks pm me. I live about 10 minutes way and am interested in checking out some new? trad routes.
|
|
|
|
|
climbinganne
Apr 28, 2003, 1:48 AM
Post #3 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2002
Posts: 11679
|
absolutely...i agree this HAS got to be handled VERY DELICATLY...so i shouldnt be the one doing it...
if i wasn't so friggin scared of worse karma..i would cut those suckers off in the middle of the night.
i look forward to hearing from the others who call chickies their home crag...
|
|
|
|
|
furryfrisbee
Apr 28, 2003, 1:59 AM
Post #4 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2002
Posts: 260
|
Maybe if you just go to the rangers, discreetly, the crosses could be removed. Without raising a fuss that the press could get hold of. If it's a climbing area, there should be a ranger who is friendly to the climbing community. Anne, I hope you can find a ranger that can help with this. After all, in most parks down here, there is no bolting. When they won't allow bolting, I would hope that the rangers would be quick to correct such defacement as crosses bolted to the rock. Discreetly, of course. That is, of course, if they have a bolting ban, and a friendly ranger. Keep us up to date Anne, please.
|
|
|
|
|
farmerc
Apr 28, 2003, 2:15 AM
Post #5 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2002
Posts: 184
|
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh, thats funny... there is nothing climbing friendly in Lancaster. The rangers (while i respect them) are moreso neutral towards climbing and don't seem to give it much thought. I was quite pissed about the crosses too--those are some sweet problems/starts of routes they are on, grr, and the tree... Maybe it's just because i don't believe in anything, but I say let the living enjoy it, the dead don't need monuments.
~Chris
|
|
|
|
|
climbinganne
Apr 28, 2003, 2:35 AM
Post #6 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2002
Posts: 11679
|
In reply to: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Oh, thats funny... there is nothing climbing friendly in Lancaster. The rangers (while i respect them) are moreso neutral towards climbing and don't seem to give it much thought. I was quite pissed about the crosses too--those are some sweet problems/starts of routes they are on, grr, and the tree... Maybe it's just because i don't believe in anything, but I say let the living enjoy it, the dead don't need monuments. ~Chris
ok chris...so it is OBVIOUS that the two of us should not attend this face to face possible meeting, until we simmer down....we really need to put our heads together and find the BEST possible way to approach this
adam is right, we can't have this turn on us...
|
|
|
|
|
simzboardr
Apr 28, 2003, 2:42 AM
Post #7 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 232
|
WHo need a park ranger... someone get me an ice pick and a sledge hammer and withing a few minutes i'll have those crosses floating down the river.
I know im only sixteen and all but its REALLY HARD to tell your MOTHER how SAFE climbing is when there are THREE crosses at the base of the cliff. I mean seariously Anne is very correct WTF. THe next person to try to put a cross up is gonna have one of their own.
im sorry for the families but please keep our cliffs clean and our trees standing. We like it the way it was.
|
|
|
|
|
climbinganne
Apr 28, 2003, 2:49 AM
Post #8 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2002
Posts: 11679
|
In reply to: WHo need a park ranger... someone get me an ice pick and a sledge hammer and withing a few minutes i'll have those crosses floating down the river. I know im only sixteen and all but its REALLY HARD to tell your MOTHER how SAFE climbing is when there are THREE crosses at the base of the cliff. I mean seariously Anne is very correct WTF. THe next person to try to put a cross up is gonna have one of their own. im sorry for the families but please keep our cliffs clean and our trees standing. We like it the way it was.
thanks pete ;)
ice pick and a sledge hammer??? **anne, doesn't like that combo**
bad karme pete...let's try to have the lancaster county parks commision help us before we resort to clipping the bolts on the crosses...heh...and age don't matter bro... 8)
|
|
|
|
|
redpiton
Apr 28, 2003, 3:41 AM
Post #9 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 8, 2003
Posts: 238
|
I respect those soul's to the highest degree and I can see why they would want a corss etected. It makes perfect sense to me. Let's hold these people in our highest reguards. However, let us also have these people remain intact in out memories, not in two pieces of wood nailed to the rock where they perished. Chickies rock is a sacred place to Many...many being the keyword. These three croses symbolize the feelings of two people and their families...What about the hundreds of other people that grace this area with their presence?
I respect the people and their families, but why destroy the enjoyment of someone else who loved the place...That tree never saw it coming. I say we erect a cross for it. Im sure the dead wouldn't mind if we simply moved the corsses to the TOP of the cliff, where people would see them and it would even warn them about the dangers as well, and it would be out of our way.
When I started climbing there, there were no crosses and plenty of trees. Now the crosses almost out number the healthy trees.
Death is sad, but to stretch it out is even worse. My respects to the people and the tree.
|
|
|
|
|
flying_dutchman
Apr 28, 2003, 4:51 AM
Post #10 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 708
|
i often see crosses on the side of roads and highways after accidents but people still drive on the road... climb the fukin cliff; If the cross doesn't bother you that is. Sorry, but uh, just cause somebody dies somewhere doesn't mean that their relatives can lay claim to the ground there.
|
|
|
|
|
psych
Apr 28, 2003, 6:12 AM
Post #12 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 416
|
You know, bad karma aside (as this would generate oodles of it), you could always use the cross as a sit down start and up the grades on the routes...I think that's what those people would have wanted. :roll:
That's pretty weak, I feel for the loss of your routes...
Mike...
|
|
|
|
|
katydid
Apr 28, 2003, 12:10 PM
Post #13 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2002
Posts: 3212
|
This is a delicate topic whenever it comes up, whether it's crosses on the side of a highway or bolted to the rock at a crag. My thoughts on the matter are as follows:
[opinion]
Some states have passed a law allowing a 30-day (or less) display of a roadside memorial where there has been a death. Some states have banned them altogether, citing distractions to motorists. Perhaps those sorts of laws should be extended to all public property, whether it's a school, a highway, or a climbing area.
Grieving does not put you above the law. Your personal experience does not trump everyone else's personal experience. You're not allowed to cut down trees on public property. Doesn't matter the reason. It's simply selfish and arrogant to assume that you have more right to a public area, no matter what your experience with that area is. That includes bolting crosses to rock faces.
If these people did not get permission from the county prior to defacing the rock (if "so-and-so RIP" was spraypainted on the rock, I'll bet people would be up in arms about the graffiti -- just because it's a cross doesn't make it less of a defacement), the crosses should be removed. If they did get permission from the county, perhaps someone could approach the people responsible for county parks about moving the crosses, so they're a) not bolted to the rock and b) in a place where people can see them but it's not interfering with other people's access to the area. Either way, the tree-cutters should be cited. (How would they like it if I found it personally significant to bolt a religious symbol -- pick one -- to their house and cut down a tree in their yard so people could see it better? Even if, for whatever reason, I found it personally important to do this, it doesn't make my actions right ... and I bet they'd be right pissed off.)
Public property is no place for a display of religion -- any religion. Crosses are a display of religion. Leave your religious symbols in church and at your house.
[/opinion]
There are a couple of rc.commers that volunteer with the Access Fund and the ACCess Committee (Canadian version). Perhaps one of these folks could offer a suggestion or two on how to deal with this delicately, in order to see everyone to some sort of compromise.
k.
|
|
|
|
|
mike
Apr 28, 2003, 12:14 PM
Post #14 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1461
|
Annie I may have told you what I came across when backpacking through RRG. I was taking a winding trail up toward an arch and came across this small wreath of native materials with a note stuck in it. The note explained that the little memorial was for a loved one who fell off the arch when trying to stop a burning log from rolling off the top, this was back in the days when you could build a fire on top. His family does this every year. Reading the note gave genuine pause for reflection, and there was no permanant disfigurement. Maybe if somebody contacted the familys. Probably tell you to go to hell, might be worth a shot though.
|
|
|
|
|
climbinganne
Apr 28, 2003, 12:24 PM
Post #15 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2002
Posts: 11679
|
In reply to: In reply to: as many of you are aware...a couple, three years ago a young lady died celebrating her birthday on top of chickies rock...although not climbing related we were all saddened by the news of her passing. Soon after her friends and or family erected a cross..bolted it into a strictly TRAD/topropable crag...yes...on a route... I wonder how many of you would think differently, if you were in their shoes... - d.
as USUAL dom you act like an asshole...if i were in their shoes, i would be dead...now..if you were meaning the shoes of the friends and or family...dom i have been there 3 times this past year...did i erect crosses for my loved ones...NO...so don't assume it
the crap is GAWDY!!!!!
i would be ashamed if my friends/family did that for me...i would EXPECT my climbing partners here to FIX it!!!
yes..it is unfortunate about the deaths...BOTH of THESE deaths COULD have been PREVENTED..they sure as hell shouldn't be glorified!!!!
tragic as they re/were...it still doesnt give anyone the right to deface property and cut down trees...
|
|
|
|
|
crimpmaster
Apr 28, 2003, 12:36 PM
Post #16 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 4, 2003
Posts: 25
|
i call chickes my home crag....and i went by there a couple weeks ago when i was home from school to do a couple boulder problems that my friend and i worked out last summer......and that cross is dead center in the middle of the problem.
with all due respect to those lost........there are cemeteries.
i regard this as a form of graffiti.
it should be removed.
|
|
|
|
|
pusherem
Apr 28, 2003, 12:39 PM
Post #17 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2002
Posts: 187
|
i agree
|
|
|
|
|
climbinganne
Apr 28, 2003, 12:47 PM
Post #18 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2002
Posts: 11679
|
thought i'd run into you yesterday...was a bit disappointed...NEXT TIME!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Apr 28, 2003, 12:57 PM
Post #19 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
I agree as well. We had a young man die in Palm Springs in a motorcycle accident. He happened to be a climber. So his friends decided that they should bolt a plaque in his honor somewhere in Joshua Tree National Park. After numerous emails, etc., we finaly convinced them this was a BAD THING TO DO!
|
|
|
|
|
ezjay40
Apr 28, 2003, 3:59 PM
Post #20 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 18, 2002
Posts: 550
|
"Someone said to put the cross up top"
That would be a great idea!
What a deter ant !
I'm shore even the families would go for that... It could stop someone else from the same fate...
But I see this alot! never Bolted tho
There is a nice one on the trail up to Pole Steeple. just a little memorial in a grove trees. lying on the ground.
there's another one out Rock State Park. Now that one effect me the same way as Chickies. With a cross at the Base of the rock, It just gives me hebbyGebbies... It's Freaky...
But I no the Parks Don't like u cutting the trees down and Defacing Park property. thats a no no... So it should be a ez one to win
|
|
|
|
|
crimpmaster
Apr 28, 2003, 4:24 PM
Post #21 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 4, 2003
Posts: 25
|
i guess we all agree that the cross(es) should be removed:
any thoughts on how to do it?........contact authorities?.......remove it ourselves?....or talk to the relatives of those lost.
i think that getting in touch with those who installed the cross would be the most respectful.
:?
|
|
|
|
|
climbinganne
Apr 28, 2003, 4:26 PM
Post #22 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2002
Posts: 11679
|
i dont want to see them when i top out either...
maybe if they were put in the lookout area...you know near the sign that says don't throw objects...climbers below...yet the beer bottles and rocks continue to fly...
|
|
|
|
|
hugepedro
Apr 28, 2003, 4:38 PM
Post #23 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 2875
|
I'd recommend you contact your Access Fund regional rep. They know how to handle delicate issues like this, and can give you guidance.
http://www.accessfund.org/
|
|
|
|
|
climbinganne
Apr 28, 2003, 4:40 PM
Post #24 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2002
Posts: 11679
|
In reply to: i guess we all agree that the cross(es) should be removed: any thoughts on how to do it?........contact authorities?.......remove it ourselves?....or talk to the relatives of those lost. i think that getting in touch with those who installed the cross would be the most respectful. :?
yes...it would be respectful to contact the families...
but, if they were involved in the crosses...they were also involved in the tree cutting...
i think we should go to the county first...see what they say..if they take them down, i am most comfortable with that...i dont want to involve the friends/families in this matter...i dont want an issue OTHER than..it is not a shrine...peeps cannot cut trees down...and if they ALLOW this...it will continue...more than likely GET WORSE...
it needs to be handled in the MOST NON EMOTIONAL way...these families can not do that...their actions have proved this thus far...
but hey...this is good...we need to discuss every avenue..i could and am wrong (heh, often!)...lemme know if my thinking is off...
damn...we ignored the first cross...i knew this was gonna happen...what about the girl they found in january...is her shrine next??
|
|
|
|
|
climbinganne
Apr 28, 2003, 4:45 PM
Post #25 of 91
(17955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2002
Posts: 11679
|
In reply to: I'd recommend you contact your Access Fund regional rep. They know how to handle delicate issues like this, and can give you guidance. http://www.accessfund.org/
actually the access fund has already contacted me...after seeing this thread last night...as of now i declined their help
this is county property...i don't wanna knock the access fund here
i dont think we want/need all the hoopla that goes along with involving them...
anyone else's thoughts on this matter???? - i think many of the locals know what i am saying....
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
