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furryfrisbee
Apr 28, 2003, 4:46 PM
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In reply to: i dont want to see them when i top out either... maybe if they were put in the lookout area...you know near the sign that says don't throw objects...climbers below...yet the beer bottles and rocks continue to fly...
Good idea Anne. This might make a good fall-back position if they can't be removed completely.
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hugepedro
Apr 28, 2003, 4:54 PM
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Even if you don't involve the Access Fund in an "official" capacity, I'm sure they can still help you with things like drafting letters, and listening to your situation and giving advice on how to deal with the local land managers. I'm sure if you impressed upon them the need to keep this quiet and a local issue they would understand that.
I'm just saying don't write them off too quickly. I think a lot of what they do does not involve a publicized circus. They have experience with touchy stuff like this, as well as the more publicized situations.
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sauron
Apr 28, 2003, 5:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: as many of you are aware...a couple, three years ago a young lady died celebrating her birthday on top of chickies rock...although not climbing related we were all saddened by the news of her passing. Soon after her friends and or family erected a cross..bolted it into a strictly TRAD/topropable crag...yes...on a route... I wonder how many of you would think differently, if you were in their shoes... - d. as USUAL dom you act like an asshole...if i were in their shoes, i would be dead...now..if you were meaning the shoes of the friends and or family...dom i have been there 3 times this past year...did i erect crosses for my loved ones...NO...so don't assume it
My dear Anne,
Contrary to what you'd like to think, I am not trying to be an asshole about this issue - but rather, trying to get people to see this from the point of view of the family...
How many times have you seen the small crosses along the sides of the road, when some kid is killed by a drunk driver, or similar situation..
Yes, the family's use of a bolted-in cross may be a bit oveboard, the family might not have known better, and merely need a bit of re-education.
Often, us climbers think/act like we own the rock - this is generally not the case - we're given the rock to climb on, but we are there, because someone lets us, not because it's our God-given right, and definitely not because we "own" it.
Even in State/national parks, which are state/federally funded, should the park service decide that it'd be bad (safety/other reasons), they can go in and declare the climbing as an illegal activity. (Yes, this is extremist - it's likely they'd have a hard time passing it, etc.. But the point still remains.)
Talk with the park service, or the land owners of chickies (I don't know where chickies is, other than close enough for Anne - which only gives me a rough approximation) nor who owns it - you locals find that out.
Any knee-jerk reactions from a bunch of rogue climbers, will very likely cause nothing but tension, and make the situation worse.
In reply to: i would be ashamed if my friends/family did that for me...i would EXPECT my climbing partners here to FIX it!!!
That's because your climbing partners, and presumably your family - know enough about climbing to tell - to the rest of the non-climbing world, the rock is just that.. "Just a rock" - see my above statement about re-education.
You state that 2 (all three?) of the deaths, were not climbing related - so it's safe to assume that the friends/family of the deceased aren't up to snuff on the climbing scene at Chickies...
- d.
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climbinganne
Apr 28, 2003, 5:31 PM
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dom...i do understand the sadness these families are dealing with...
i understand their want/need for a cross...i was willing/trying to live with that
but when they cut a living tree down..to shove the crosses in our faces...when FINALLY..i could walk by and not notice it...I KNOW OTHERS FEEL AS I DO
i want to figure out WHY the county left the first cross up...
i personally do not know how many people have died from drunken parties up there...or suicide... i know it is over a dozen...and it will continue to happen...
thank you for your response dominic, are you saying the families should be contacted???
hmmm...i dont think that is a wise first move
i am still looking at the chess board here
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climbinganne
Apr 28, 2003, 5:35 PM
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In reply to: Even if you don't involve the Access Fund in an "official" capacity, I'm sure they can still help you with things like drafting letters, and listening to your situation and giving advice on how to deal with the local land managers. I'm sure if you impressed upon them the need to keep this quiet and a local issue they would understand that. I'm just saying don't write them off too quickly. I think a lot of what they do does not involve a publicized circus. They have experience with touchy stuff like this, as well as the more publicized situations.
thank you!!!
i have not ruled out their help...at this very moment i am actually discussing my options with them..at this time they are NOT officially involved...more like a friend helping me think this through ;)
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roclimb
Apr 28, 2003, 6:06 PM
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I respect Ann's decision. She is a local climber there and she would represent the community as good as any org. would. Thats what the AF really is anyway. Local climbers doing good turns to support a sport they love. If she was some crazy person who might approach the park yelling and screaming with a colt-45 and a copy of "Helter Skelter" in her hand, it may be a different story. But Ann seems to have a darn good head on her shoulders and seems to be thinking things through. If the community wants the AF help I am willing and im sure Lonnie who deals with Central PA would help as it is his region.
But its all about local climbers on a local level so I respect Ann's decission and encourage it.
Rob H
NEPA Access Fund Coordinator
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polarwid
Apr 28, 2003, 6:18 PM
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OK, up here in ALASKA, a "famous" climber by the name of STEVE GARVEY (not the baseball player) died while climbing down near PORTAGE. On a cliff in HATCHER'S PASS (over 100 miles away) is a memorial plaque for him (HATCHER'S was his favorite climbing area). It is right at the base of a route, but discreet enough that you have to be right next to it to see it. I have never seen anyone, nor do I have a problem with it.
I did not quite gather whether the COUNTY was aware of the "vandalism" on their land, as permanent fixtures would probably need a permit of some kind. The cutting of a tree was definately a heinous act, as a memorial area should be quiet and peaceful for reflection, not a gaudy display for all to see.
Climbing on or around these "markers" should not be a problem, it is not like there is a body there or something. They chose to place them in a known climbing area, so what happens to them happens. If some thought would be given to the families of those lost, my recommendation would be to look into finding a smaller out of the way rock or boulder in the area that a plaque could be affixed to with room to place the names and a religious symbol (cross, Star of David, crescent, whatever...) to memorialize all of the current and former people who met their unfortunate end at this place. I don't know who would fund this, maybe the families, maybe the county, but to avoid "desecration" of their markers, it seems that the families should agree with some sort of plan like this. You could even tell them that their markers are in a "high traffic" area and that placing them there is the same as putting them in the middle of a sidewalk or in the middle of the highway. They may not have realized the other users of the rock (for whatever purpose) would be hindered or impeded by the placement of the markers.
I know this was rambling, but just my thoughts on the issue. THey have as much right to the area as climbers do, though the permanent fixture of items without permission on county property should be looked into. Just remember though, that this could also affect YOUR placement of any bolts in the area, as they would be covered by the same laws.
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gblauer
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Apr 28, 2003, 6:57 PM
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Here is an idea:
Remove the crosses, plant a tree, add a bronze plaque to create a memorial to those who lost their lives at Chickies. I, for one, would be happy to contribute $ or labor to the effort. Everyone wins: the families get the memorial, we get our routes back.
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polarwid
Apr 28, 2003, 7:10 PM
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AMAZING how someone can take that 50 line paragraph I wrote and trim it down to 5 lines...THANKS GBLAUER!
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climbinganne
Apr 28, 2003, 7:21 PM
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first of all..thanks to adam..who helped calm my blood pressure down...special thanks to rob, for his help and support...and to all of you for your ideas..
In reply to: Here is an idea: Remove the crosses, plant a tree, add a bronze plaque to create a memorial to those who lost their lives at Chickies. I, for one, would be happy to contribute $ or labor to the effort. Everyone wins: the families get the memorial, we get our routes back.
thank you gail...another good compromise...
i will call the Lancaster County Parks and Recreation Dept...find out who we need to address this issue to...
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ckershner0
Apr 28, 2003, 7:49 PM
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I am very sorry for these families losses, and not to bring bad karma onto myself, but..
YES anne THANK YOU!!
Can you just imagine what yosemite would look like if there were crosses at the base of every climb that someone died on?
And as far as the tree cutting goes... Isn't it against the law to cut down trees in a state park?
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vertical_reality
Apr 28, 2003, 7:53 PM
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What if you found some of the friends of the deceased (climbing friends) and have them explain to the family the ethics involed with their actions. If a family friend explained to them how their lost one loved climbing and everything it meant to them and told them how they'd probably want other climbers to be able to enjoy the routes they would be more understanding then if a random group of people questioned what they did. Just have a familiar face tell them that they do not want to remove the memorial, but that it should be changed to suit everyone.
By the sounds of the thread so far it seems that everyone assumes that the family will kick up a stink about it, try to make it so that you want them to be remembered in a better way, who knows, they might think its a good idea... but if you start saying stuff about the tree they cut down, tensions will become worse.
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braaaaaaaadley
Apr 28, 2003, 7:53 PM
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With respect to the families who errected the "memorials"... why did they have to be bolted to the rock??? That was a pretty dumb idea, but since they are now there they have two functions: 1) they remind us not to do stupid things, and 2) they aid you in the climb with your first foot hold being provided for you 8)
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climbsomething
Apr 28, 2003, 8:07 PM
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Kate makes a lot of great points. No one person's grief should be above the law, or other peoples' rights to an area. Bolting crosses into a rock face and cutting down trees is presumptuous more than selfish, but still assumes that a permanent personal memorial would not be a problem with anybody else.
On the other hand, Dom is right too. There's probably a lot of simple ignornance on the part of the friends and family of the deceased. They probably really didn't know any better (though if they did, and said "eff it, I'll do whatever I want" well, that's not so nice) Just because we climb the rock doesn't mean it's ours anymore than the regular citizens who know their loved ones enjoyed the crags for non-climbing purposes.
The people who erected these memorials should be contacted at some point early on, but it's probably wise to go to the authorities first.
Good food for thought. Keep us updated.
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climbinganne
Apr 28, 2003, 8:49 PM
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i had a great conversation with the head of the Lancaster County Parks and Recreatiion Dept.
i just finished sending him an email with the pictures...
he said to me on the phone that they were unaware of the crosses being bolted to the base of the wall (he said they were unaware of the cross that has been there for the past couple years too...)..and they definatly didn't know about the tree being cut down two weeks ago.
He is at this time checking the rules and regulations of this specific Lancaster County Park...if it is written in BLACK and WHITE that there is to be no bolting...or disfigurement to the rock..the park service will immediatly remove the crosses...if there is no clear cut rule...it will have to go in front of the county commisioners monthly meeting at the end of May. I hope we can avoid the red tape here.
We really did not discuss what will happen to the crosses...we focused on the negitive impact on the park..and the fact that it is not a memorial/cemetary and that unfortunatly in the past 4 months there has been three deaths there...
Let's all hope this is all written in BLACK and WHITE...
my e-mail to the head of the parks in Lancaster County...
Dear Mr. Weiss,
Thank you for your time this afternoon. I was under the impression that the LCPRD knew about the original cross...located in picture #1 on the left side. As you can see in that picture another cross on the right side as well as a third below that cross has now been erected.
In picture #2 and #3 you will see the downed tree...as of yesterday April 28th, 2003, the tree is still located at the base of the wall, I have been told by fellow climbers it has been laying there for at least two weeks. I was at the wall 3 weeks ago that is when i noticed the 2nd affixed cross.
We, as a community of concerned climbers and friends of chickies rock, are more than willing to remove and dispose of that tree properly without involving the family...or embarrass those responsible...we know they are in mourning...also we would like to remove the stump...possibly replant a tree near where the other was destroyed.
As per our conversation on the phone, where the crosses end up off the rock is at the county parks discretion, of course.
Thank you again for your compassion for both sides of this issue.
Here is my info, i look forward to hearing from you in the next week...hopefully this can all be resolved peacefully and discretely for all those involved.
Anne Shaw ***-***-****
climbinganne@yahoo.com
Sincerely yours,
Anne Shaw
#1 - http://www.fototime.com/...ddt=37739.0182625347
#2 - http://www.fototime.com/...ddt=37739.0182838773
#3 - http://www.fototime.com/...ddt=37739.0182950926
***you know...we are in need of a NEW picnic table...maybe..we could honor those lost that way...just an idea!!! - i will mention it to Paul Weiss when i speak with him next week...
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madriver
Apr 28, 2003, 9:40 PM
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Unless your last name was ......
Washington
Lincoln
Rosevelt
Jefferson
...permant memorial should remain in a graveyard.
A temporary memorial would have been appropriate, and a yearly commenrative if so desired. Chopping down trees and erecting permant markers are not.
My thoughts
MR
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elvislegs
Apr 28, 2003, 10:10 PM
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Ungh! that's idiotic!
...when I go, someone put up a really sick new ice route and call it something special like "Sean was a Jackass" that should do for my monument.
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climbinganne
Apr 28, 2003, 10:31 PM
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In reply to: Ungh! that's idiotic! ...when I go, someone put up a really sick new ice route and call it something special like "Sean was a Jackass" that should do for my monument.
yeah...a jackass that gives up his belay device to a friend...yeah sean...jackass...that is THE FIRST WORD that comes to my mind when i think of you....pfffft... :roll:
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pullonthis
Apr 28, 2003, 11:53 PM
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I too was at Chickies on Sunday, where I met Anne. I saw the crosses and found them to be not only inappropriate and a bit gory, but also a deliberate destruction of nature! Not only were holes drilled into the rock, but a tree was cut down and left laying there. To me, a memorial is put up as a reminder of that person's life, and IMO defacing the rock and killing another living creature is not the besst way to remember someone.
Being that Sunday was my first time at Chickies, I wasn't sure what to make of the situation, but I would like to help however possible. Chickies is a great place to climb and meet new friends, so if any help is needed, you know how to find me!
I think the new picnic table is a good idea. We could even put a small plaque on the table in remembrance of lost loved ones. In this way, the deceased's memory can live on in a useful manner that everyone there can appreciate and enjoy. I also think that something could be done with the fallen tree so that it doesn't just get hauled away and used to make toothpicks, maybe a new belay bench?
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ezjay40
Apr 29, 2003, 12:02 AM
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Way to go Girl...
Ur the chit the real deal
I thought Ranger Rick would like that... 20 some yrs ago it was like a 500.00 fine for one tree.
Climb on!
These www is something
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orangekyak
Apr 29, 2003, 12:58 AM
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In reply to: Anne Shaw ***-***-**** climbinganne@yahoo.com
should be accessanne@yahoo.com hahaha nice going dude
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gyngve
Apr 29, 2003, 1:03 AM
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In reply to: OK, up here in ALASKA, a "famous" climber by the name of STEVE GARVEY (not the baseball player) died while climbing down near PORTAGE. On a cliff in HATCHER'S PASS (over 100 miles away) is a memorial plaque for him (HATCHER'S was his favorite climbing area). It is right at the base of a route, but discreet enough that you have to be right next to it to see it. I have never seen anyone, nor do I have a problem with it.
On top of Lundin Peak here, there are memorials/anchor bolts for climbers
who have died on route, usually from falling on the "3rd class" descent.
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climbinganne
Apr 29, 2003, 6:45 AM
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In reply to: Chickies is a great place to climb and meet new friends, so if any help is needed, you know how to find me! I think the new picnic table is a good idea. We could even put a small plaque on the table in remembrance of lost loved ones. In this way, the deceased's memory can live on in a useful manner that everyone there can appreciate and enjoy. I also think that something could be done with the fallen tree so that it doesn't just get hauled away and used to make toothpicks, maybe a new belay bench?
thats the spirit...welcome to the family ;)
i think the belay bench is an awesome idea!!
we could use a new one over by sunday morning and hollywood...
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climbinganne
Apr 29, 2003, 12:54 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Anne Shaw ***-***-**** climbinganne@yahoo.com should be accessanne@yahoo.com hahaha nice going dude
that would be dud-ESS wouldn't it jeremy???
and to think all that time we spent together
...and you didnt notice... :roll: :wink:
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missedyno
Apr 29, 2003, 1:53 PM
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poor tree.... they should plant a tree in the memory of the loved one...
anne, kudos to you for your action on this....
and dom, i agree with you, this seems like an act of un-climbing-educated people. let's hope they have noooo idea that they're interfering with the climbing in the area....
again... poor tree.
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