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bobd1953
May 1, 2003, 12:06 AM
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Here we go! Orangekyak, some people think the act of climbing defaced the rock and surrounding areas (parking lot, trails to the rocks, picnic tables, camping spots, belay benches, chalk, slings on trees, slings hanging on the rock, pitons in the rock, bolts in the rock, etc). So let's not get into that. I was raise in Philly and have lived out west
for the better part of 30 years. I am also proud to be from PA and I am proud of the FA's that I have done in Eastern PA. My point in my first post is that a lot of people other then climbers frequent Chickie's Rock. The land belongs to the people of Lancaster and not just the climbers ( though you think so) in the area. Go through the proper channel and work things out with the County of Lancaster. Enough said!
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rwaltermyer
May 1, 2003, 12:12 AM
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I think this issue should be locked and layed to rest.
Please. Let's channel this energy towards planning a gathering, a cleanup, or anything more productive than bashing on each other.
Any Seconds?
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sandbag
May 1, 2003, 12:15 AM
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My two cents:
I didnt even want to read the rest of the diatribe strewn about here, even though some of it is probably entertaining to say the least. If im repeating a former post with my sentiments, "excuse moi!" but take this angle. If its a State or County supported area, you can always try to work the "Separation of Church and state angle" and if that doesnt work, how about a nice bench back away from the rocks. IMHO, people that have to placard and ruminate the exact point of death for a person, are in need of some additional emotional healing and possibly counseling. Its ok to grieve, its natural. But to bestowe it upon us, and all the rest of the world isnt ok, and you wont be able to get closure.
well ok, thats more like 57 cents. bonus!
:?
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climbinganne
May 1, 2003, 12:21 AM
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whoa...
it is my understanding that the county could care less if the crosses were bolted on the rock, attached to a fence, or stuck in the ground.
there is clear separation of church and state issues here...we are out of this!!!
this is no longer our concern...go ahead and debate all you want
the county, state and federal parks are not graveyards or personal memorials, they simply can not allow it
period end of story
there is no compromise - none - we are not in this equation anymore
i second randy...lock this up...it is over folks
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orangekyak
May 1, 2003, 12:25 AM
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bob, you have some interesting points, especially about many people using the land (we clearly share the feeling that management of natural resources goes deeper than human use) but ...
In reply to: My point in my first post is that a lot of people other then climbers frequent Chickie's Rock. The land belongs to the people of Lancaster and not just the climbers ( though you think so) in the area.
I'm getting a sense that you're not really reading what I, and others, are writing. I said that climbers should feel ownership of rocks because too often nobody else does. Clearly, a couple of other people agree with the sentiment, including Coach, wideguy, and drector. Drector probably said it best:
In reply to: just because you don't have legal possession of soemthing doesn't mean you can't claim it as being important to you enough to treat it like a possession to be safeguraded from evil. I consider the earth to be something of a possession... not that I own it and can do as I please but that I am responsible for it's well being. All climbers should be responsible for the well-being of all climbing areas and treat them like they own them. We don't own them but we are still responsible for them. |
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climbinganne
May 1, 2003, 12:40 AM
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In reply to: The land belongs to the people of Lancaster and not just the climbers ( though you think so) in the area. Go through the proper channel and work things out with the County of Lancaster. Enough said!
one more thing...my friends all know me...i won't let this go, you are bashing a climbing partner and friend of mine
you are totally off
jeremy was praising my initiative and the fact that that it was handled through county authorities in the first place
pfffffftttttt....get off your soapbox sprayer..."of many PA FA's" wtf has that got to do with anything other than petting your ego...
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bobd1953
May 1, 2003, 12:49 AM
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Boy, I am really scared now! Anne chill-out. I am not bashing anyone. Just stating a few facts. You have rights just as the other people of Lancaster have rights. Go through the proper channels and take it as far as you need too!
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danyelle
May 2, 2003, 5:58 AM
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In reply to: Unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable! I took some time to look back over the thread, and note some of the comments that bothered me. I was going to DISCUSS them here, but it appears any time someone expresses an opinion or concern that doesn't happen to comport with the loudest mouth in the thread they just get slammed. Ignorance is bliss.
Oh My God!!!
Rob,
I too tried to stay out of this but it gets increasingly hard as I read some of the self-righteous, illinformed commentary posted here. Rob I commend you for your input and I feel you hit the nail on the head in your first response. I have been quietly reading in the wings the comments made and am astounded at the idiosy and lack of respect displayed here. I will not bore anyone with lengthy commentary for I do not possess the poise to do it right now and I can't really say it any better than Rob already has. Thank you for giving this thread a more realistic, reasonable, and cooler tone than many of it's original respondants.
~Danyelle
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climbinganne
May 5, 2003, 7:10 AM
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i laugh at the last comment made...so easy to sit on your fat ass and judge isnt it dannyhell???
i admitted i was wrong to jump to that conclusion even though the county said they didnt cut that tree down...you dont have enough character to ever do that, so watch your holier than thou attitude!
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crag
May 5, 2003, 2:57 PM
Post #85 of 91
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I’ve been climbing at Chickies Rock for over 20yrs. and I’ve always been more upset over the broken glass everywhere, impromptu fire pits, graffiti, trash and general lack of respect for the land by all its users than the recently affixed crosses. You want to talk about lack of stewardship this is an area of severe lacking.
As tragic as the deaths were the crosses won’t be there forever, trust me on this they won’t. The constitutional issue of separation of church and state does not apply here and I don’t have enough time to explain it.
The real problem here is the permanent affixing of an object to the rock. It is in direct violation of county ordinances and the memorials must be removed. That’s it plain and simple. Obviously there is a tactful and respectful way to go about it. Its shame that park officials did not take a more proactive stance when the first cross went up; instead they waited until an internet discussion by a bunch of climbers to do something about it.
If the crosses freak you out when you walk by them then good, nothing like a little stark reminder. The crosses do not block any routes; you’ve just chosen not to climb on or over them. Remember they are not there as grave markers but as memorials. As far as the trees around the cliffs at Chickies, I’d wish they would all be cut down except for some of the sycamores and locust. They are nothing but scrub tress that have grown up since the abandonment of the rail roadbed, the trail that we now walk on, closest to the rock face. These are the same tress that the power line companies and Penn Dot cut down all the time. Replant the area with tress that are indigenous to the region; oak, maple, cherry etc. Yeah they take longer to grow but the end result will be worth it.
This calling to arms, if you will, over the placing of these crosses and the now decision to have them removed by the enforcement of an all ready in place law has set back the work of others to allow fixed climbing anchors at Chickies Rock. Perhaps this is best though, because now maybe the park will develop a more detailed policy on climbing and the future of climbing at Chickies Rock.
Coincidently, the policy on rock climbing may already be changing because yesterday I witnessed a park ranger on foot patrol tell a group of young climbers that they could not climb because they did not have helmets…..Hmmmmm, stayed tuned to your local channels for further information.
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sauron
May 5, 2003, 3:39 PM
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In reply to: i laugh at the last comment made...so easy to sit on your fat ass and judge isnt it dannyhell??? i admitted i was wrong to jump to that conclusion even though the county said they didnt cut that tree down...you dont have enough character to ever do that, so watch your holier than thou attitude!
Anne,
First off, you should be mature enough to get over the name calling - I quit name-calling in 3rd grade - one would think that such a well-aged woman as you, would have better sense than stooping down to a 3rd graders level.
Secondly, with this post, you have done nothing but prove leaverbiner's point.
Yes, we all know the poor sod of a newly hired county guy, initially said they had not cut down the tree. Later, he corrected himself, and admitted that they had indeed cut down the tree.
Ignorance is rarely an excuse - you should not have made the assumption initially - and, you would have saved yourself the faux pas, had you spent some extra time thinking about what you were accusing people of, earlier.
And I'm not sure that you're the right person to go telling others to stop their holier than thou attitude.. *cough*
- d.
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climbinganne
May 5, 2003, 3:44 PM
Post #87 of 91
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In reply to: In reply to: i laugh at the last comment made...so easy to sit on your fat ass and judge isnt it dannyhell??? i admitted i was wrong to jump to that conclusion even though the county said they didnt cut that tree down...you dont have enough character to ever do that, so watch your holier than thou attitude! Anne, First off, you should be mature enough to get over the name calling - I quit name-calling in 3rd grade - one would think that such a well-aged woman as you, would have better sense than stooping down to a 3rd graders level. Secondly, with this post, you have done nothing but prove leaverbiner's point. Yes, we all know the poor sod of a newly hired county guy, initially said they had not cut down the tree. Later, he corrected himself, and admitted that they had indeed cut down the tree. Ignorance is rarely an excuse - you should not have made the assumption initially - and, you would have saved yourself the faux pas, had you spent some extra time thinking about what you were accusing people of, earlier. And I'm not sure that you're the right person to go telling others to stop their holier than thou attitude.. *cough* - d.
no dom..she still owes me money and an apology...
i didnt have to post i was wrong...i did it anyhow
i am done here...
the crosses will be removed..that is what this all was for..mission accomplished..some of us didnt sit around..others sat and waited and then jumped in and opened their mouths, after the dirty work was done..yeah..that's character...
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polarwid
May 6, 2003, 1:18 AM
Post #89 of 91
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In reply to: In reply to: The land belongs to the people of Lancaster and not just the climbers ( though you think so) in the area. Go through the proper channel and work things out with the County of Lancaster. Enough said! one more thing...my friends all know me...i won't let this go, you are bashing a climbing partner and friend of mine you are totally off jeremy was praising my initiative and the fact that that it was handled through county authorities in the first place pfffffftttttt....get off your soapbox sprayer..."of many PA FA's" wtf has that got to do with anything other than petting your ego...
Anne, take it easy on Bob...he is one of the mellowist guys I have ever climbed with, besides Earl Wiggins. He has probably put up more FA's on more crags than this entire site put together, but you don't hear him spray on it. Look at a GUIDEBOOK for the GARDEN OF THE GODS, SHELF ROAD, GUNKS, PA QUARRIES, SOUTH PLATTE, ELEVEN MILE...etc...etc... and you will see he knows what he is talking about. He was simply making a point that he is well acquainted with PA climbing. Shoot, he probably wrote half the guidebooks out there, if HORST didn't!
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rwaltermyer
May 6, 2003, 1:21 AM
Post #90 of 91
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....i only wish that this thread would go to the cemetary....
LOCK IT. PLEASE.
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sauron
May 6, 2003, 3:45 PM
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In reply to: ....i only wish that this thread would go to the cemetary.... LOCK IT. PLEASE.
If it bothers you that much, stop reading the thread.
DUH.
- d.
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