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hayduke 8
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May 8, 2003, 6:43 PM
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I have a very serious concern that I would like some feedback on. Does anyone get pissed off that guide companies are exploiting the crags that you love for a profit? I hate to hike up to some classic climbs to see a large group of yuppies or boy scouts dangling from the numerous top ropes littering the area. -Especially at Devils Lake
I know that people need to start somewhere, but dammit, take it in the gym for god’s sake. Once they have some common sense of climbing, then they could come outside to learn anchors and not just a weekend of getting a “rush” that they can tell their friends about. I hate those guides that take complete newbies climbing because those people are never gonna stay with climbing, they just have no outlet.
I feel that all guide companies should be charged based on a client bases, have very strict regulations (such as the areas they are allowed to climb at and when they can pick their noses), or they should all be sent to Iraq along with President Bush and Cheney.
We stand for what we stand on! – Ed Abbey
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survivalexpert
May 8, 2003, 6:53 PM
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hmmm...I think that guiding companies are cool because they introduce people to climbing etc. I think that you need to be more open and accepting. Its not your mountain. Do you feel as though you have more rights to climb than others? You may have that opinion but you can't tell people that they are not free to do as they choose in this case.
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rockmx
May 8, 2003, 7:01 PM
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Start early!!!
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loinclothman
May 8, 2003, 7:31 PM
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sorry, I don't think anyone could get hooked on climbing if they started in a gym. Because they're willing to pay money for things you get for free, there will be someone else willing to take their money.
now trashing the mountain? THAT I have big issues with.
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photon
May 8, 2003, 8:00 PM
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this would bother me if it weren't Devil's Lake. Find somewhere worth
complaining about first.
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leader2
May 9, 2003, 1:11 PM
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Easy there killer. Just because one climb or even a group of climbs is taken there is till other climbs. Besides we only wated 6hours to get on it. The wait could have been worse. And that third climb dam_ that was nice.
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jbrd528
May 9, 2003, 1:56 PM
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Haydude: your and idiot!!
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socalclimber
May 9, 2003, 2:44 PM
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Agreed. I've never climbed at Devil's, but I do live/climb/guide in Josh. There are 6000+ routes here, you couldn't find one other formation to climb??? Sheesh, get a clue.
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kyhangdog
May 9, 2003, 2:51 PM
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Hay's got a point. Guide services have no right to monopolize one section of a crag for their own profit: EVERY WEEKEND. At New River a guide service sets up shop at the Bridge Buttress at the most easily accessed crag in the gorge. The area they take up is huge in my opinion and they are there every weekend. I think the guide services should go to a remote location every now and then. There are plenty of routes at New River, but it's just the principle I'm against.
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climbersam
May 9, 2003, 3:36 PM
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You lucky people who live in plush routed areas can't identify. Here in Texas, if you go to Enchanted Rock for a weekend, expect to see near-permanent top ropes actually left OVERNIGHT thursday, friday, and saturday on some climbs. Sure its public grounds, but these guys have been guiding the same area so long, they act like they own the place. When a service consistently has thirty plus people hogging routes all weekend its unfair. Even worse, some of these routes are easy access routes to better areas and climbs.
Its nice that they introduce new climbers to the sport, but they often seem to me bottom-dwellers, using up limited resources for quick cash.
When I think of the time, money, and energy I've spent developing my abilities, and I go to some place and all these boy scouts throwing around trash and obviously just there for baby-sitting, it pisses me off - these guides have take their knowledge to place themselves in a PRIVELEDGED position among their peers.
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andy_lemon
May 9, 2003, 4:34 PM
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When you go outdoors for the first time your with someone who knows what they are doing... whether your the only one with them or your in a group. So, guideservices have found a way to capitalize off of the situation, a much needed service. Just be thankful the gumbies are not climbing out there on their own.
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ramylson
May 9, 2003, 5:38 PM
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Alright.. I'll toss myself in the lion pit..
I work for Adventure Rock, specifically guiding at Devil's Lake which I've done for almost five years. Most of my answers will go off my experiences while I've worked for them, since that's the majority of my knowledge. I believe Dairyland Guiding Service is very similar in ethics, considerations, and style as Adventure Rock, but I'm not 100% sure. Sure, there are more guiding operations up there then those two, and not everyone does the same things.. but, I'll just stick with what I know for sure for my responses.
In reply to: I have a very serious concern that I would like some feedback on. Does anyone get pissed off that guide companies are exploiting the crags that you love for a profit? I hate to hike up to some classic climbs to see a large group of yuppies or boy scouts dangling from the numerous top ropes littering the area. -Especially at Devils Lake
First, let me say that Adventure Rock doesn't take groups over onto the East Rampart. We stick to the West Bluff, as well as anything west of Balanced Rock wall (Railroad Ampetheature, Birthday Rocks, and Horses Rampart). I know some guiding services/groups to go over onto the East Rampart, and I don't agree with that.. for exactly the same reason that you've listed. The East Rampart holds a lot of the "classics" for Devil's Lake, the climbs with more history then the rest. But, there is solid climbing throughout the park. We don't go there out of respect/consideration for other climbers, as well as the pure ethics of it. There have been many times where I've gone over to the East Rampart and seen guiding services setting up very early, just to "stake a claim". Probably my biggest pet peeve in the world, especially when the group their guiding doesn't come up for several hours after they're set. Personally, I think a lot of the guides/groups aren't associated with any guiding service. Rather, they're scouts or organizations where someone knows a bit about climbing and feels they can lead a group. They don't understand the ramifications in their actions, or the ethics surrounding the area. Personally, if I see it happen, I tell them how I feel (in a un-aggressive tone). How else will they learn? There are a lot of unwritten rules surrounding our climbing areas, and there's only one way they'll find out. There are a lot of side issues associated with this as well.. but, that's a different topic (safety, area impacts, etc). You wouldn't believe some of the things I've seen people do, both while guiding a group and otherwise.
In reply to: I know that people need to start somewhere, but dammit, take it in the gym for god’s sake. Once they have some common sense of climbing, then they could come outside to learn anchors and not just a weekend of getting a “rush” that they can tell their friends about. I hate those guides that take complete newbies climbing because those people are never gonna stay with climbing, they just have no outlet.
Everyone has to start somewhere.. and there's a world a lot bigger then the gym. Heck, outdoor climbing is leaps and bounds above climbing inside (IMO), and why shouldn't others be able to experience the same thing? I mean, why do you climb outside? I'm sure it's not because the gym is crowded. Adventure Rock does have beginner classes that will go out to the Lake, but very rarely. Usually, there isn't enough interest to warrant taking the class out. But, the rest of the classes we offer (the ones that we're primarily out teaching).. top-rope set-ups (Ropes, Knots, Anchors), transition climbing (gym to crag), and private instruction.. all start in the gym. If nothing more then to teach proper belay techniques in a controlled environment.
Actually, I just taught a class this past weekend from UW Milwaukee. It dealt with the history of the park and the unique nature found within it. Basically, the nature and set order of our world. It's taught with a few guides from Adventure Rock, as well as an employee of UWM and the autobahn Society (I don't think I spelt that right). The class is absolutely amazing, and if it were up to me I would say that every climber at Devil's Lake would have to take it. You walk away with a respect for the area we're climbing in. Sure, the group is comprised of complete beginners (they still have to do a belay class in the gym beforehand), but that shouldn't limit their access to the park. It's there for everyone to use.. and, hopefully respect. Don't get me wrong though, there are specific areas where these people should "learn", and that's part of the job of a good guide.
In reply to: I feel that all guide companies should be charged based on a client bases, have very strict regulations (such as the areas they are allowed to climb at and when they can pick their noses)..
We already do.. as well as you. Everyone has to buy a pass into the park for it's use. If you limit one group from using an area, then you'll end up limiting the use for the entire group. At least, that's how the park is going to look at it. We already have limited access (New Sandstone Area), with the possibility of a lot more limitations (ie., if the current state climbing plan gets voted in, where it states that climbing wouldn't be allowed in any State Natural Area, or SNA, which is the majority of Devil's Lake State Park). Heck, the park and DNR have already considered charging climbers for their specific use, but it isn't considered anymore. Just remember, the decent groups that are guiding in the park are following the ethics found within, while respecting and taking into considerations of those around us. As well as taking into account the tenative access. Every class I take up to the Bluffs takes garbage left by others climbers who were previously there. There are more issues then just this..
In reply to: ..or they should all be sent to Iraq along with President Bush and Cheney.
:roll: Right..
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drkodos
May 9, 2003, 6:59 PM
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In reply to: Its nice that they introduce new climbers to the sport
Why is this "nice"?
I think your other arguments have merit. However, bringing new people to the sport isn't nice. It's business.
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andy_lemon
May 10, 2003, 2:56 AM
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In reply to: However, bringing new people to the sport isn't nice. It's business.
Pay to play brotha... there are two ways to learn how to climb, indoors & outdoors. Which would you rather do?
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thrashclimber
May 10, 2003, 8:23 PM
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i'm goin to devils lake the end of may and yea i'm just gonna go during the week
we wend last year in may and during the week days theres almost nobody there sept a few locals adn somtimes field tripes for suronding schools
i dunno its easyer and safer when u dont have kids walking through ur new test peice!
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kristyclimb
May 26, 2003, 6:40 AM
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Haha, this is almost comical, all this "climbing drama." There could be a reality TV show about this -- god let's hope that never happens!! Sorry, just wanted to put that out there. I think you just need to not get so worked up about things! Try not to let it bother you. It's all about the climbing, and there are so many routes there! :D
Don't worry be happy
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gthornberg
May 26, 2003, 1:14 PM
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Just a thought: If guide companies are taking your climbs, perhaps it's because you are still new to climbing (a comment not intended to be a jab). Guide companies only take easier 5.4 to 5.6 type routes. Consequently, some climbers are never bothered by them.
I understand how frustrating these companies can get, especially when they place anchors the night before or when you want a route for your beginner friend. Consider this principle: We live in a democracy where the will of the majority is yielded to. If you see more people climbing a route (whether climbing school or not) they are the majority. I cannot see any valid principle in thinking, "Because I've climbed for longer..." or "because these people will never climb again..." that they should not be allowed to climb. People are people, whether they become serious climbers or not.
After nearly 20 years of climbing, I've grown tired of many climbers’ "my-turf" mentality. It's funny to me to hear climbers comment on how annoying "tourists" are, as if we're not some form of tourist. It's not an "us-vs.-them" issue. People and their desires deserve to be respected even if they never become climbers. We're not any more special than they are because we hold that title.
Here's a tip: Try asking for a belay on the rope where someone sets up. I usually get a yes. In fact, those same people are probably eying your route. Share a belay on your line and expect to make some new friends.
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lynelle
May 28, 2003, 5:11 PM
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I'll throw my own two cents in here for what it's worth. After a trip of a life-time to JT I knew I had to climb. No place to start like DL. I hike there almost every weekend and watch other climbers go at it. It's only 1 hour from my house. I will be going with a guide service the first weekend in June. I have been counting down the months for half a year. Given the opportunity to start outside or indoors, man, I wouldn't miss the chance to start outdoors. What an education! The company I'm going with respects the park, the environment and other climbers. You know, we all have to start somewhere, whether it's outside or the gym. I'll take the outside any day... wouldn't you?
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vertical_reality
May 28, 2003, 5:24 PM
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In reply to: Here in Texas, if you go to Enchanted Rock for a weekend, expect to see near-permanent top ropes actually left OVERNIGHT thursday, friday, and saturday on some climbs. Sure its public grounds, but these guys have been guiding the same area so long, they act like they own the place.
Well if I were you I'd take the ropes/gear down, leave it in a big pile at the bottom of the crag and leave a note saying... "It won't be here next time."
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ramylson
May 28, 2003, 6:48 PM
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In reply to: I will be going with a guide service the first weekend in June.
Just wondering.. what place are you going through for that?
In reply to: Well if I were you I'd take the ropes/gear down, leave it in a big pile at the bottom of the crag and leave a note saying... "It won't be here next time."
That's good.. I'm going to have to use that sometime.. :wink:
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gretchino
May 28, 2003, 8:02 PM
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drkodos said, "I think your other arguments have merit. However, bringing new people to the sport isn't nice. It's business."
Wha??? "brining new people to the sport isn't nice" !! :shock: Business? Okay, yes they are making a profit however I would much rather have a school make a profit and educate someone that would like to learn one of the most amazing sports out there than some lacky who's climbed outdoors a handfull of times. That's generally when I have had to watch Life-Flight come to the crag to rescue someone who shouldn't have been doing what they were doing WITHOUT an experienced guide.
Yes classic routes can get crowded (Joshua Tree is an excellent example of this) however you can always find something else to climb. No one owns the wall, but proper ettiquette can be learned. I do have a problem with the schools that set up a web of Top Ropes and leave them there with no one climbing on them (I've posted about this before). But honestly, where else are people going to get the real rock experience and be safe about it? Someone in here said stick to the gym, come on man! That is NO WAY to experience rock climbing! Gym climbing is a great way to practice and continue strength training, but it really doesn't give someone the feeling of being outside with the weather on them experiencing something that most would otherwise never get to do.
Just my humble opionin...I agree with a lot of what is being said and have been upset with the schools as well, but where else are people going to do this safely?
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interruptor
May 28, 2003, 8:42 PM
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Hey, climbersaw!
Theorically, boyscouts don't trash crags! I was a scout till a few months ago (first a scoutboy then a scout leader), and the main rule outdoors is to leave the site better than when you got there! (i know that the Boyscouts of America are organized differently, but i believe this is a value that stands worldwide!)
Besides, I got into climbing with the scoutboys, and if more people don't get into climbing by themselfs after these guided tours, it's because most of the time the superiority atittude of the guides gives other people the idea that climbing is something for pros or crazy "radical" dudes!!! I climbed for the first time with the scoutboys and what the guide told me was "Don't do this without a guide!" instead of a much profitable "I can introduce you to someone who can teach you!". Last year I saw a bunch of d***head guides taking a group climbing, in wich was a REALLY HOT CHICK, and instead of teaching her to do the stuff by herself (like buckling up) they were all "Let me help you with that! Don't worry! I'm grabbing you!" :wink: "Oooooh! This is so hard! how do you do this? aren't you afraid?" "It takes a lot of practice!"... ...It was a 3+(french) route... :shock: :shock: :shock:
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vertical_illusions
Aug 14, 2005, 2:28 AM
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Hi,
Im a local here in Baraboo, and I love climbing at Devils Lake. The secret is go during the week for all us avid climbers..(monday thru thursday). You get the park all to yourself. I don't climb on the weekends. Also the park is 9000 acres, there really is climbing for everyone at anytime. Most climbers usually pass up the old sandstone area and the South Bluff, so there is peaceful climbing anytime, even on the weekends. Feel free to call me to climb.
Your climbing partner,
Easton
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climbfrog
Aug 15, 2005, 9:11 AM
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Easton is right! There are plenty of routes to climb at DL! I used to climb there all the time. I live in Australia now, so it doesn't bother me. However, it is my home crag and will always love DL!
First you need to ask yourself this,"How many times have I climbed in the same area and the same route?" So many people get complacent in thier climbing and don't want to try new things. They think that they are awesome climbers just because they can do a route so well, and they've done it a hundred times.
Guiding companies (Yes, I'm a guide) only go to areas they know well, and are easy to get to. Therefore, it's easy for the clients to get to as well. There are so many areas that guides won't take clients to at DL because it's a pain in the as*, not to mention dangerous for large groups to get to. That leaves a huge amount of exploration to be done of the park. There is sooooo much climbing there. Thats what you need to do, explore.
One thing I do now, is never climb the same climb twice in a season. Thats an awesome way to get to know the park. Yes, I used to climb the same climb over and over again( at DL). Thats just boring. Your climbing will get sooooo much better if you dont repeat the same climbs. The routes are different, you may have to set-up differently, and the gear in the climb will be different too! All these things will make you better.
By the sounds of it, you arent leading, as with my observations, most people don't at DL. Its a fabulous place to lead on natural. There's lots of great proteced routes to be found that people don't always get to. Some with easy access too. You just need to get the initiative to go and do it. If a group has a rope set-up on a climb, find the group leader and ask if you can lead it when the current group on it is on a break. The group leaders are usually very cooperative.
You are right about there being a lot of companies making money on climbing. But that's what happens since climbing has gotten so popular. If you were more willing to look for other areas, you wouldnt be complaining.
I think dogs should be banned from crags! Not the guides.
Mat Z.
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