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mhr2000
May 25, 2003, 8:38 PM
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This is kind of long, but it's hard to explain what I witnessed in only a few words.
I had this hiking trip planned to the Red River Gorge for quite some time, before I was really into rock climbing, otherwise this would have been a rock climbing trip.
After our main two hikes we decided to go watch some climbers at Military Wall and Left Flank. I was hoping to give some better insight in to climbing since my buddy now knew it was something I was getting into.
I honestly have to say it was something I regret now. I regret it now because all the climbers I saw at that time had to be the most pathetic example of what rock climbing is about, unlike my last time there by myself when I got to see at least several great examples.
First issue was the 6 or more dogs walking around unattended. I'm even more on the side of "NO DAMN DOGS AT THE CRAGS" now. They were very annoying and ticking every off who didn't have dogs. Dog fight almost insues before owner puts his doritoes down to handle his free roaming dog.
What I witnessed from every group was a bunch of hangdoggin and beta requesting. Climb 2-3 moves hang on the rope ask for beta, climb 2 more hang on rope ask for beta. Pretty much every group was doing this and took them forever to climb (if you can actually call that climbing) a 60 foot route. I also get to witness all these climbers taking over the entire base of a route from the wall to the trail. Packs spread out everywhere, shoes, clothes, gear, everything all over the place and you could barely walk the trail that is buried under it all. At Left Flank the one corner near the the end of the access trail was taken up by two groups who had the entire rock covered with gear, bags, bottles, ropes, chairs and you had to step over and around all this crap to get past. We finally made it through all the crap and on the other side watched some more hangdoggin and came across one guy on TR ready to start his climb. The normal beta request starts and the belayer, who was more in to giving the beta then actually protecting the climber, lets the rope slack and the climber falls landing on his feet pretty hard on the rocks. The climber actually laughs it off and starts climbing again with the same belayer.. hmmm! We decide to go back around to the other side again and watch the group who started putting on the harnesses as we first got there. This was a 1/2 hour or more after seeing them the first time. We get back through the corner packed with crap and walk over to start watching and nobody was even tied in ready to climb. They were too busy chatting and doing nothing. We sit on some rocks and hang out and about 15 minutes later finally someone ties in and is ready to go. That's 45 minutes after taking over a route and actually starting to climb it. This was the only guy though who we saw make it to the top without one word of beta and not one hang from the rope. There weren't any dogs at Left Flank.. go figure!
Of course while all this going on my buddy is asking questions and trying to understand why nobody is ever climbing and when they do it's more hanging. He's also asking about all the gear everywhere that apparently must not be needed since hardly anyone is even climbing, so why is it all over the place. Couldn't figure out for anything why a dog roaming all over the place was so important to bring only to ignore them.
I really don't have any answers for him because I'm new to all this as well. However, It's quite easy to see that most all these climbers were attempting stuff way out of their league. It's also quite easy to see that none of them had any sense of ethics about hoggin routes just to let their group hangdog for hours. Also don't have any ethics about taking up the entire crag with all their gear in everybodies way.
The stuff I witnessed this trip was 180 degrees from what I saw the first trip with the exception of 1 group of newbies that day. I got to see some real climbers that first trip and everyone was nice and kept their gear in one place organized. Didn't see any dogs that first trip either.
Anyway, my point is this:
I'm going to take this weekends experience and use it for beta for my WHAT NOT TO DO AT THE CRAG list. I'm not going to be "THAT GUY" who acts like these people I saw. I want to respect other climbers so they won't have to deal with anything that I could cause. I also want to actually learn how to climb so I don't take 30 minutes to climb a 60 foot route while hanging from the rope every 2 holds. I will also climb at my level and progress one level at a time and not attempt stuff that I have no business being on. If your a 5.10 climber, then you aren't a 5.12 climber just because you can hang your way to the top for 30 minutes.
Well, if you made it this far thanks for lending an ear! I just had to vent.
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karma274
May 25, 2003, 10:04 PM
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Yo, chill. I can understand your dissillusionment and dissappointment at not seeing any amazing feats of climbing skill, but often times thats what happens. Sport climbing often times involves lots of hangdogging. I don't like to watch someone hangdog something thats way out of their league either, but I'm not gonna blow a gasket over it. Also, people ask for beta. Get used to it. (Example: a route I redpointed a month ago felt really friggin impossible when i first started working it the week before. After good beta and some hangdogging, it felt WAY easier. I was glad to finally send it. Major confidence booster.)
Also, about the gear: water, snack food, a rain jacket, ropes, quickdraws, and a harness add up to be a lot more than you might think, especially when spread out.
I understand your dissappoinment, but you'll have to get used to it. There are lots of groups of people out there like this who still need to figure out that it's more fun to do stuff within your limit than to hangdog a hard route for an hour. Don't worry so much about the gear. Polite reminders to be tidy at the crag might be your best bet, but some might take offense.
I can understand your dislike of the dogs, but unfortunately its a problem that won't be ending anytime soon. I don't really care for dogs at the crag either. Most are too poorly behaved.
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andy_lemon
May 25, 2003, 10:27 PM
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Let me tell you a real quick solution to the whole "unattended dog" thing that I use regularly when I bring my 12 pound dog (weighs that only when wet) on a leash... unattended 75 pound dogs start barking and snapping at my little doggy, no one around? Pepper spray. Dog leaves never to be seen by me again. Unattended dog comes over starts munching down my dogs food and water... pepper spray to the face, runs away, never to be seen by me again. Sure, your sitting there saying to yourself, "This guy is crazy, if it were my dog well I'd...". Blah Blah Blah, for 1, after my "unattended dog" speach most climbers understand why I sprayed there cute little pet (?), and for 2, them knowing that I have pepper spray is going to keep matters calm. There is only one simple rule to solve this problem, one rule that I follow... you bringing your fucking mutt to the crags, keep his ass on a leash. If you don't, and he starts acting like an uncontrolable idiot, he is going to get pepper sprayed.
About hangdogging... You must have missed the climbers who lead the route. That would have been nice for you to see. The other climbers could have been begginers or maybe even experienced climbers trying to improve there skill. Granted you won't get better just hanging on a rope but you must work/practice the moves somehow. I'm sure I'm not the only one that will say I've hung on a rope.
But if there were people waiting in line to get on these routes then that is a different story. One quick lesson about the Gorge, don't go during festival weekends if your looking for polite, nice, and conciderate people. A lot, not all, but a lot of climbers that go during festivals at the Gorge are touristie climbers who get out about 5 times a year to climb and are using their vacation days at work to insure that they climb when and where everyone else is... why? So they can talk.
About the belayer dropping the climber... in my opinion it was just as much the climber's fault. If he would have been paying a damn bit of attention he would have told the belayer to "take" just like any climber on lead or top rope should do when they feel there is too much slack in the rope. Example, me when I tell you to take slack at the gym... :wink:
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mhr2000
May 25, 2003, 10:30 PM
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Believe me, I'm not losing any gasket over it and I'm certaintly not telling anyone what not to do. My main point as stated was to take this information and NOT be like these people and this is something I can control.
I didn't care about seeing amazing climbing either, I just wanted to see some actual climbing. I also realize beta is part of climbing, but not when it's the whole entire climb and they hang on the rope every other move while receiving it. Whats the point in that?
I did say my previous trip to the gorge was the complete opposite. Those people managed to keep their gear confined to a certain space so why couldn't any of these people do that? Just the difference between people who care and those who don't. I guess some people just have the attitude that they are superior and will look more important if they take up as much space as possible.
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andy_lemon
May 25, 2003, 10:37 PM
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Oh, and those people who are LOUD while your trying to lead a climb or belay on lead... SHUT UP! I can't hear my climber/belayer! You want to talk? Goto the damn climbing gym.
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tenn_dawg
May 25, 2003, 10:45 PM
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In reply to: I'm not going to be "THAT GUY" who acts like these people I saw.
Haha, this made me laugh. Have you read THIS post yet? It's all about not being "That Asshole", and learning from others.
I feel you buddy. I get embarrassed by other climbers sometimes. I just want to yell at them "Stop hangdoging, you know that your embarrassing yourself, don't you?" But that's their ethics, to each his own. I just wish they'd move off of the climbs I want to climb alot faster. And maybe jump on a couple of the trad lines up there. They really are suprisingly classic for a "sport climbing destination".
Travis
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mhr2000
May 25, 2003, 10:53 PM
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Very good points Andy.
Great pepper spray idea, will have to get some before my first trip out.
Your right about these people being beginners and tourist climbers I'm sure. I just looked at my guide book and most of the routes being hangdogged at military were 1,2,3 & 20... 5.7's, 5.8's and 5.9's.
The one guy who was actually trying to climb hard but still voluntarilly handdogging about every 4 holds was a 5.12
I see a huge difference between hangdoggin involuntarilly vs voluntarilly. Letting off the rock on purpose to stop and think about the route is not the same as falling from an attempt and resting a second to think about the move. Two completely different things if you ask me. Heck, I could probably climb 14's if I do 1 move at a time and rest on the rope in between, but what's the point.
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andy_lemon
May 25, 2003, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: I could probably climb 14's if I do 1 move at a time and rest on the rope in between, but what's the point.
I wouldn't count on that. :wink:
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mhr2000
May 25, 2003, 10:57 PM
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I know I know..... was just making a ridiculous statement. hehehe
OHHH... and the best one yet! I saw a rappel taking place at Froghead (200' rappel). They guy was using a Munter Hitch... WITHOUT A BACKUP!! YES... WITHOUT A BACKUP!!
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hosgh
May 26, 2003, 6:08 PM
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In reply to: OHHH... and the best one yet! I saw a rappel taking place at Froghead (200' rappel). They guy was using a Munter Hitch... WITHOUT A BACKUP!! YES... WITHOUT A BACKUP!!
LOL, that guy is gonna be in for a big suprise when he falls to his death from 200' feet up :lol:
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jkarns
May 26, 2003, 6:36 PM
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I agree pretty close to 100%!!
To the guy who told you to get over it, uhhh... you're wrong!
EXCESSIVE HANGDOGGING DESTROYS ROUTES!!!!!
Now that statement does not mean that one must climb each and every route cleanly on the first go (obviously). However, hanging ones way up a route, taking many falls, and having to try moves repeatedly puts unnecessary wear on the holds. I've watched climbers get on routes over their heads and get "stuck" on a move that they just can't get past. I watch them pull up onto the rock, try the move, and have their foot pop off again and again. And each time this happens I think, there goes a little more friction for the person who can actually climb the thing.
Think about it, the person who climbs a route cleanly is not the one who is polishing it; it's the person who falls his way up it! Not to mention the fact that you're hogging up the route!!! So push yourself, take some falls, but don't get on something WAY over your head. It's not going to make you a better climber, and you're just going to ruin it for the rest of us.
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climbsomething
May 26, 2003, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: Believe me, I'm not losing any gasket over it...
Well, it kinda sounds like it!
What's that redneck bumper sticker say? "NO SNIVVELING" ?
OK, maybe I am picking on you at the moment, but you know HOW many people come on this site, and, imbubed with their own set of behavior codes long-established or freshly-acquired, start squealing "wee wee wee" all the way home when they witness something at the crags that they don't approve of?
You went to a world-famous sport climbing area and saw less-proficient climbers dogging up 5.8s. OK. Not like this doesn't make the catty among us snicker, if we're feeling so inclined, but so? That's not very sexy. If you were part of the audience at the Gumby Show, and feel the need to share, at least keep to the highlight reel. I see plenty of climbers dog on 5.8s, 5.7s, 5.12s. I belayed a new trad leader recently who dogged and whimpered on a 5.6 that ate gear but I didn't come here breathless to talk of his newbieness. Nobody cares! Not even me. I just told him I had him on a good belay and he had all the gear he needed, and he sucked it up and did fine. Ho-hum. 'Nother day at the crags that won't be on the next Masters of Stone vid.
Nobody was doing anything UNSAFE or scary at the Red, it sounds like. Maybe not being shining examples of the virtues of klimbing, but oh well. I am a largely boring person to watch climb too, even when I am doing fairly well.
I am RANTING, and sorry mhr if I am picking on you. I guess I am now ranting in general on the "I saw xXxX and it was lame" threads.
Rant rant rant. Me shuts up. Submit. ;)
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jt512
May 26, 2003, 8:03 PM
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In reply to: EXCESSIVE HANGDOGGING DESTROYS ROUTES!!!!!
Every time I think I've seen the stupidest statement that anyone could possibly make about climbing, someone comes along and tops it.
-Jay
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jt512
May 26, 2003, 8:11 PM
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In reply to: I really don't have any answers for him because I'm new to all this as well.
Aside from the unattended dog stuff, the above is the most sensible comment you've made. As a clueless newbie, maybe you should hold off on your judgmentalism until you understand a little more about the sport.
In reply to: However, It's quite easy to see that most all these climbers were attempting stuff way out of their league.
How do you know? Sounds to me like they were working routes for an eventual redpoint. That is standard practice.
In reply to: It's also quite easy to see that none of them had any sense of ethics about hoggin routes just to let their group hangdog for hours.
How do you know they were hogging the routes? Did you see them turn away another climber who asked to work in with them?
-Jay
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millie4690
May 26, 2003, 8:14 PM
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Oh my gosh. when I was reading what people had posted here, I kept waiting for the 'just kidding' or 'gotcha' or something to that effect. I also visited the Red River Gorge recently, and it was my first time climbing outside of the gym. before I had left the comfort of my well-known plastic arena, I was warned by several veteran climbers (15+ years each) that because I am a female climber, and my partner is also female, that we would most likely experience quite a bit of grief from the male climbers we would encounter. not true! if anything, the majority of the other female climbers we ran into seemed to be more stand-offish than the males, in fact, we spent all day Saturday climbing with a group of guys who we still email and gym climb with, when we can.
as for climbing outside one's ability level, how else is someone supposed to progress? everyone that I was with could easily outclimb me, some even in their sleep. but, they were all very supportive and encouraging and even dissappointed when I wouldn't jump on the routes they were working on that were obviously out of my league. yes, there were times when the group I was with had a top rope set up on several climbs that were quite popular. in that case, the people that were 'waiting' simply made it known and either used our rope as a top rope, or pulled it and lead the route. if we needed a rope to do another route and they had ours as a TR, they kindly let us use theirs.
in my opinion, the dogs were wonderful. I was so jealous of all the people that had dogs at the crag! I didn't see any dogs fighting, nor did I see anyone that seemed to mind that someone else's dog was trying to be a part of the action.
as far as I'm concerned, almost everyone that I met that weekend was exactly what I had hoped and expected. people were very open to sharing snacks, water, beta, gear, almost anything. if you need it, and I have it, it's yours. for so many people, it seemed like the actual climbing was almost secondary to the comaraderie of the whole event. good people getting together to share a beautiful day of cheering each other on in the latest project route or crux. making fun of each other at how hard the 'approach' was, trying to figure out just which route everyone was climbing.
as far as hangdogging destroying routes, these 'routes', these beautiful, wonderful, magnificent wonders Mother Earth, or God, or the Creator, or whoever or whatever you believe in has created and allowed us to appreciate, are not ours to regulate how much and how often or even in what way a person makes use of them. I am quite confident that neither you nor your friends, nor anyone else today can say that they found and created any of the rocks, boulders, or mountains we choose to enjoy and occupy our time with. people that enjoy to climb will do so. for the most part, as an idividual, you have no say over where they climb, nor what 'holds' or features they use while doing so. we are climbing on natural rock or snow, or ice, or dirt, or whatever is available that strikes a person's fancy. these things are not permanent. they are constantly changing. can we get mad at the wind or the rivers for changeing the shapes and features of rock we might one day decide is fit for climbing? it is only fair to hope that each person respect the rocks and the boulders and the ice she or he climbs on, as well as the path that helped her or him arrive there. (a bit philosophical/preachy, I know, but the point remains.)
I'm sorry that your experience was not what you had hoped and wanted it to be. I'm also sorry that I very well may be one of the people that one day gives you reason to complain on an online message board. but, in the future, if everyone around you seems to be having a good time - whether they are chilling for a snack, hangdogging on a hard route, talking with their friends, or playing with a dog - and you seem to be one of the few people, or perhaps the only one, that isn't having a good time, perhaps you should reassess the situation.
I don't mean to upset anyone or cause anyone hard feelings. other people have expressed their opinions and this is mine.
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orangekyak
May 26, 2003, 11:07 PM
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which ever side of this arguement you're on, the answer is simple.
\/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/
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pico23
May 26, 2003, 11:37 PM
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Dude, my advice is to chill. Seriously. I don't know what else to tell you. You basically put on a rant about nothing. It would have been different if you were actually climbing but you weren't. You were just a spectator and honestly climbing is not a spectator sport unless you are at Kliene Schiedeg looking at the Eiger through a spotting scope. I'm sorry climbing doesn't meet your idealistic views but unfortunately that is the way the sport is. It's a sexy sport that has a lot of people involved for the wrong reasons. My guess is like mountain biking the sport will eventually recede. Actually, I'm not really sure if you are involved for the right reasons based on your teary eyed whiney post.
BTW, hangdogging and beta are what sport climbing and top roping is about. If you don't want that climb trad or do something else because part of the appeal of sport climbing to many people is pushing hard moves with little consequences. Those climbers know they will fall many times and hangdog between redpoint attempts. Thats sport climbing. Not too many people get on a sport route well below there ability after they get some experience.
I'm not really sure how much a climber you actually are. Sounds like you are a gymbie to me expecting to see Chris Sharma et al. at the RRG pulling 5.12's onsight without breaking a sweat. Put down the magazine my friend and realize climbing is a sport and a recreation that isn't accurately portrayed in gripped and Rock and Ice. Anyway, why not actually get out and climb and see how well you do before blasting your fellow climbers for having the balls to actually rope up. Who the hell plans a hiking trip to a high quality rock climbing area during the peak of spring climbing season???? I could see mid summer when it is so hot climbing is the last thing on my mind but I'd be damned if I went to the RRG and didn't bring my rope, harness and some draws to at least try a few routes in between hiking.
Anyway, it's always easy to sit out the action and critique as you did. Perhaps you might actually show the other climbers how it is done next time instead of standing around acting all high and mighty.
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pico23
May 26, 2003, 11:55 PM
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In reply to: Your right about these people being beginners and tourist climbers I'm sure. I just looked at my guide book and most of the routes being hangdogged at military were 1,2,3 & 20... 5.7's, 5.8's and 5.9's. The one guy who was actually trying to climb hard but still voluntarilly handdogging about every 4 holds was a 5.12
Hmm!!!! Nice to see you are the god of difficulty ratings. Glad to hear hard doesn't start to 5.12. Hmm, I thought I was climbing hard all those times I was on a 5.Xx at or above my ability. It's great you have an idea of what hard is but unfortunately hard starts at a different level for everyone. It's like anything else (such as running, cycling, skiing, ect.) which different people have different aptitudes. Just because 5.9 isn't hard for you doesn't mean it can't be conisidered hard for the 5.8 climber. Anyway, I think you need to knock yourself down a peg or two. BTW, I highly doubt you could climb a 5.14 inch by inch with hang dogging but thanks for letting us know how easy it would be.
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pico23
May 27, 2003, 12:02 AM
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In reply to: I know I know..... was just making a ridiculous statement. hehehe OHHH... and the best one yet! I saw a rappel taking place at Froghead (200' rappel). They guy was using a Munter Hitch... WITHOUT A BACKUP!! YES... WITHOUT A BACKUP!!
And you continue to make ridiculous statements. I'm glad you are also a safety expert. Generally people who rappel with a munter have a clue as to what they are doing. Newbies usually question the munter every time they see it and forget about them using it. Aside from kinking and fuzzing the rope the munter works fine for rapelling and belaying. I actually prefer it for belaying the second.
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mhr2000
May 27, 2003, 2:53 AM
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Well to answer this last one! I said he was using a munter WITHOUT A BACKUP! Didn't say anything about the munter being bad or good because it depends on the person obviously. I simply said he was doing it without a backup. Doing anything without a backup no matter what your experience is risky, but to each is own I guess. Had he been using anything else without backup I would have said "he was using a (put gear here) without backup"... POINT BEING!!! HE HAD NO BACKUP! and that's the stupid part no matter what your experience. Is that clear now?
Anyway... As pointed out before I'm not telling anyone how to act at the crag. Do whatever the hell you want. All I'm saying is I won't be acting like an asshole at the crag. Would have thought that some people would respect the idea that I'm trying to learn proper ethics before I even start going on trips instead of being some asshole doing all the wrong things. Isn't this what most climbers appreciate? Somebody who acts responsible and shows respect to other climbers at the crag.
Oh... and this hiking trip was planned many weeks back and kept getting bumped week after week due to work issues and this was the only time he had free. SOOOOOOO.. that is why we had to take the trip now and not some other weekend. Believe me, I wanted to climb, but sometimes friends are more important... guess I'm just not a cockhead like some people who would dump a friend in a heartbeat to do something else.
And the issue with climbing WAY over their ability. There is a reason I put the WAY in bold. If you can barely even do two moves without having to let go and ask what next, is this really considered climbing harder to improve ones ability? I'd like to know how hanging on the rope improves climbing ability because I always thought actually climbing improved your ability. I would more likely believe they were trying to improve if they would stay on the rock while they asked where to go, what a concept.
As somebody said, maybe I don't understand sport climbing. I thought the idea was to try and climb the route freely, otherwise it would be called aid climbing. But apparently grabbing quickdraws and hanging on the rope is what it's all about. Thanks for the clarification.
Oh well, Sorry if I offended anyone... didn't realize what the the level of sensitivity was around here.
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verbal
May 27, 2003, 3:46 AM
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What Mhr2000 described was a near perfect description of what Roadside, left Flank, and Military Wall are like on the weekend. I learned very quickly that those walls are almost unbearable on the weekends. Unfortunatly those walls have many wonderful climbs. I only visist those three places during the middle of the week to avoid what he described. Everyone is entitled to climb at what ever difficulty they please and everyone was once a begginer, but the way many of the people act and the respect that they show to others and to nature is wrong. Go to the MotherLode if you want to watch people climb with a little more grace, but there will always be hangdoggin no matter where you go.
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deke
May 27, 2003, 4:13 AM
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I actually spent the middle of last week at RRG as well and I can only somewhat agree with you.
Definitely the dogs were a problem - two dogs fighting right next to my belayer is not cool - I do not want to take a big whipper or get pulled down by my belayer while I'm leading if he's running from dogs.
Other than that, while I was there things seemed cool.
As climbing gets more popular these are going to be issues - you are going to have to deal with them...so count to ten and chill or go find your own secret crag.
-derek
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mnutz
May 27, 2003, 4:22 AM
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WARNING>>>RANT
This entire thread is yet another example of the shi--yness that I see all the time among climbers. Everyone would really be a lot better off if we all did our own thing (climb) instead of worrying (bitching) so much about what everyone else is doing.
END OF RANT.
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karma274
May 27, 2003, 4:36 AM
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Posts: 141
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In reply to: I agree pretty close to 100%!! To the guy who told you to get over it, uhhh... you're wrong! EXCESSIVE HANGDOGGING DESTROYS ROUTES!!!!! Now that statement does not mean that one must climb each and every route cleanly on the first go (obviously). However, hanging ones way up a route, taking many falls, and having to try moves repeatedly puts unnecessary wear on the holds. I've watched climbers get on routes over their heads and get "stuck" on a move that they just can't get past. I watch them pull up onto the rock, try the move, and have their foot pop off again and again. And each time this happens I think, there goes a little more friction for the person who can actually climb the thing. Think about it, the person who climbs a route cleanly is not the one who is polishing it; it's the person who falls his way up it! Not to mention the fact that you're hogging up the route!!! So push yourself, take some falls, but don't get on something WAY over your head. It's not going to make you a better climber, and you're just going to ruin it for the rest of us.
I hate it when routes get polished too, but I think blaming the hangdoggers flatout is really just scapegoating. It sucks but footholds and handholds naturally get polished and a bit smaller over time on sport routes. Honestly, there isn't a way that it can really be prevented.
And actually, at the red, the holds retain their friction really well. Limestone is a different story.
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jt512
May 27, 2003, 4:44 AM
Post #25 of 219
(13432 views)
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
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In reply to: I said he was using a munter WITHOUT A BACKUP!
Holy sh-t! You mean he actually rappelled off a single-pitch sport route wihout a backup and LIVED?????!!!!!!111
In reply to: ... POINT BEING!!! HE HAD NO BACKUP! and that's the stupid part no matter what your experience. Is that clear now?
What is clear is that you are a clueless newbie. If you happen to stick with this sport, go back and reread your post in a few years. No fair deleting it, either.
In reply to: As somebody said, maybe I don't understand sport climbing.
I doubt anybody said "maybe."
In reply to: Oh well, Sorry if I offended anyone... didn't realize what the the level of sensitivity was around here.
No one was offended by you. Embarrassed for you, maybe.
-Jay
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