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beerandblood
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Jul 10, 2001, 8:04 PM
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kagunkie


Jul 10, 2001, 8:24 PM
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Words of wisdom and unfortunatly they are becoming outdated as the new generation moves in. theres just too many fish you cant catch em all. anyway they got those pads.


fiend


Jul 10, 2001, 9:18 PM
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Wow, don't fight the change people.

Remember when rope-soled shoes were the only option?

Cams are cheating!

Stealth rubber is the devil!

The only real hardmen are in those areas of Europe where they climb barefoot and only use soft pro.


fiend


Jul 10, 2001, 9:48 PM
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Realistically though, progression is a way of life; it's human nature (along with a horrible love of gadgets!).
In order to progress, to push the limits we need to take away certain 'outside factors'. In a sense you really have to think, what does that pointy rock on the ground have to do with my climbing ability? If I cover it up and protect my spine then am I cheating or eliminating an outside aggravation. It's akin to using bug repellant while climbing. Ever tried climbing in a swarm of bugs? Their bites can be more performance inhibiting than the nagging sense of danger you recieve from the sharp rock. Is bug spray now 'cheating'?

The thing we need to keep in mind is that these are all personal choices. You may not approve of crash pads, or cams or stealth rubber knee pads, but others don't see any problem with it. Unlike bolts these are not harmful to the rock in any way and we should all respect each individual's method of enjoying the sport.

Where judgement is concerned, that is always necessary and the lack of it is what I see to be the number one hazard in climbing today. Too many climbers being told things like "oh, don't worry about paying attention, the gri-gri does everything automatically!" But the gri-gri doesn't lower automatically does it? No. It lowers at light speed if you're not paying attention, which a lot of climbers aren't.

And for anybody that thinks *insert tough guy drill instructor voice here* downclimbing is not an option!
Well, I'll see you in the emergency ward.

[ This Message was edited by: fiend on 2001-07-16 21:55 ]


wandt


Jul 10, 2001, 10:10 PM
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Here's something to think about: The Fontainebleau bouldering grades factor in the landing and how scary the route is (while the V grades only deal wioth the physical difficulty). Does using a crash pad or spotter change the route? Or vice versa- if crash pad(s) and spotter(s) were used on the FA, by doing it with nothing below you can you call it a harder grade?
In which case, if you dig a punji stake pit beneath a 5+ (VO approx.) and fill it with venonous snakes and claymores does that make the climb an 8b (V14)?


fiend


Jul 10, 2001, 10:17 PM
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Yes.


fiend


Jul 10, 2001, 10:21 PM
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Not necessarily move on, just to a more remote crag or at least one with no bolts.......there is still one of those isn't there? I remember reading about it.


dropknee


Jul 10, 2001, 10:28 PM
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Learn the complete history of crash pads at www.megaspot.8m.com From duct taped foam to manufactured pads used today. Down climbing is a very good skill. And pads, well they just protect your ass when you screw up. Which of course to any climber with a brain is good. Because then they can continue to climb (boulder). Safety is always smart.


fiend


Jul 16, 2001, 9:54 PM
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sorry, I just reread that and my point was a little hazy on that last line, It was meant as a warning to those who do not believe in the value of downclimbing.


kagunkie


Jul 16, 2001, 10:10 PM
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I still think they should make a pad with a cell phone built in so you dont need to move to call the ambulance!


fiend


Jul 16, 2001, 10:12 PM
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Medic Alert necklace for climbers.

"Help, I've fallen, killed my spotter and can't get up!"


kriso9tails


Jul 17, 2001, 11:20 AM
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No crash pad = free solo. Sure you won't die if you fall, but there go your ankles and you ain't climbing for quite some time.

Downclimbing is great and all (it's saved my ass at least twice), but the last time I downclimbed a 5.11+ overhang was... oh wait, never.

Even if I use common sense (perish the thought) and don't commit to something I can't finish or down climb, let's say a 20 foot vert. V0, if a bee stings me or I get struck by lightning (hey, it happens) you're done for. I'd rather just be struck by lightening, than be both struck by lightening and have to haul myself out of the crag with broken ankles.

(Don't worry Fiend, If I'm spotting you won't kill me as I would have most likely forgotten what I was doing and wandered off)





[ This Message was edited by: kriso9tails on 2001-07-20 16:14 ]


coach


Jul 17, 2001, 12:24 PM
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Beerandblood,
I agree with your statement about too many people at the crags. What I have noticed is that a good number of them are not climbing, just looking like climbers still on the ground most of the time. The hang ropes on all the routes, stand around and talk about it a lot and make some futile attempts where they get a few feet up and then come down. I have seen a group of 4-5 take up 3 or 4 routes an entire afternoon and never get more than 10 feet off the ground. I don't mind new climbers being out rather than in some air conditioned gym but have consideration for others. If you can't do the route move to an easier one and open it up for those that can do it! I also don't have the energy to haul a crash pad around with me. Maybe I can get my students to carry it on our next trip.

Climb On


kriso9tails


Jul 17, 2001, 2:53 PM
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For roped climbs that's certainly a problem. If you asked other climbers they'd let you climb on their rope, but can you trust their anchors? Even if you thuroughly inspect every inch of their set up you don't know how they treat their gear. Trust is nice, but not at the expense of safety.

For bouldering on the other hand, this is the perfect oppertunity to get in there and talk with other climbers, especially the newbies. Swap beta, shower them with propaganda on climbing ethics. For anyone who has problems with new climbers and their lack of ettiquette, this is he time to set them straight. Also, you can use other people's crash pads, why the hell should they care, it's not like you're asking for a lung.
(I don't think that had anything to do with the original topic, but no one ever seems to stay on topic so why should I?)

[ This Message was edited by: kriso9tails on 2001-07-17 14:56 ]


krillen


Jul 20, 2001, 12:24 PM
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Someone mentioned eliminating outside factors, prolly Fiend, anyway 50% (or even MORE) of climbing is mental. Sport, trad, TR, bouldering, aid, ice, whatever. You can climb a 5.4 and have problems with it if you head is somewhere else, and vice versa. Those days you are super focused are the one where you flash your project. (One of my agueemnts against pot and climbing, or alcohol and climbing).

You mental state has a HUGE impact on grading of a climb....in YOUR own experience....


c_plante


Sep 28, 2001, 10:56 AM
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Hey Fiend I just read that massive message of yours and I agree with everything but the downlclimbing. usually when I'm in a fix I have to make the decision between going all out for that next hold, or climbing down and trying again. It's a total safety factor for me and I don't feel like breaking anything.
Also, I'm fairly new at this, does that mean I'm a hated man here?


jds100


Sep 28, 2001, 11:56 AM
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I think there is some relationship to this topic and the larger issue of the icreased populariztion of climbing as a whole.

I don't think crash-pads are necessarily an indication of a broader lesser ethic (not "necessarily", but in many specific instances it can be such an expression); I think it's akin to (excuse me for bringing this into the discussion) some arguements about bolting and, as Fiend said, a lot of other technically advantageous gear as they came along.

In the best case scenario, I think crash pads allow a little greater margin of security from serious injury and death, such that it frees up a little more mental space from that lurking fear, so the boulderer can try a little harder each time, and try harder problems. When the consequences for failure are reduced, willingness to risk a greater effort can be increased.

I can't quite envision an example of 'over-use' or 'abuse' of crash pads as I can with bolts, though. Indiscriminate bolting.....well, some other time; I won't get into that. Actually, crash pads seem more analogous to wearing a helmet, than they do to anything else. John Sherman recommends wearing a helmet while bouldering alone, and in some other conditions, by the way.

I know that a good number of the boulderers I've seen have never been on a rope, and have no desire to get on one. So, it's easy to see how a huge chunk of climbing 'knowledge' and the background of how ethics have developed and been debated is missing. They have either never been exposed to it, or it's irrelevent to them. And, to me and to most roped climbers, downclimbing is an important tool to have in the repertoire. Maybe their thought is, "If we can just drop and jump to the 'mattress', why not?"

And to Coach's and others' (and my own) concern about the behavior of so many of the newbies, roped and unroped, how did they miss it? How did they miss the background of what so many of us consider common sense climbing ehtics? (Am I drifting too far afield?) I agree with krisO: let's try to educate in the field, on the spot (though it's hard when I fumin' mad). And, no way would I trust somebody else's anchors and gear, unless they're my partners'. But, I know I've just walked off in disgust at the 'Bogarting' of a row of climbs by a TR group.

Anyway, I think the numbers of new climbers will taper off at the point when the money interests see their commercialization efforts begin to become cost-ineffective, and The Today Show -(sorry; my forum on Tori Allen)- set-ups and other made-for-TV events don't bring in a lasting -LASTING- increase in participation in climbing.

And maybe the crash-padders while blow out tendons and elbows and fingers and shoulders and grade-point-averages so fast they won't be around as long as us older guys who ramble on and on and on......

[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2001-09-28 12:01 ]


k2exp2010


Sep 28, 2001, 12:11 PM
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crash pads man. times change and we get bolder and bolder, thus, making more and more mistakes as we try to achieve skill. those pads help. just need to know how to use them right: when to rely on them and when not to.


metoliusmunchkin


Sep 28, 2001, 2:18 PM
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I personally do not think as crash pads as a weakness or some kind of "cheat". The guy who invented crash pads just wanted to save his ankles a few aches and pains, and that's basically all they are for, to prevent injury. For those of you who think that using a crash pad for bouldering is a weakness, I have one thing to say to you: Chris Sharma uses a crash pad.


c_plante


Oct 10, 2001, 12:26 AM
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Of course having those safety devices certainly help develope your safety skills. I don't personally climb with a pad, and I only recently switched from hiking boots to proper shoes (got paid), but if I could afford a pad I would.


paulc


Oct 10, 2001, 7:16 PM
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Beer;

Dude sometime you make no sense! Crash pads as a method of cheating. Even with a pad or three and 3 spotters you can still hurt yourself. They aren't a foolproof thing just like gear isn't foolproof, but hey you know what else isn't foolproof??? Thats right. Your ability to downclimb a route. Down climbing is much harder than climbing up. Which I guess means that you shouldn't ever climb up anything that you can't down climb. In which case we should all stick to V1 boulder probs and 5.9 routes.

Dude you got to get real. Thats like saying that you are cheating life if you wear a seatbelt in a car because you should know that you aren't going to get into an accident, because you can always get out of the way. But I bet you wear a seatbelt right??

Check you later.

Paul


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 10, 2001, 7:46 PM
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The ACL in my left knee was torn badley skiing years ago, and I need either a new knee or cadaver ligaments to fix it.
You can see in my pics, I always climb with a knee brace on, and when I boulder, I wear 2 different types at the same time. I torqued my knee at the gym on a big ass pad peeling off. I have to use a crash pad to preserve what's left of my knee.


rrrADAM
p.s. beer, I know we're gonna boulder in December. Are you gonna be embarrassed to walk with me if I have a Cordless on my back ? If so, I'll walk 20 feet behind you.


fiend


Oct 10, 2001, 10:13 PM
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I think some people missed my addendum to that long post.

It was meant as a warning to those who think that downclimbing is not an option. As in, if you think that downclimbing is not an option then I will see you in the hospital because sooner or later you're going to hurt yourself.
I fully support the value of downclimbing.


c_plante


Oct 11, 2001, 2:41 AM
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Beer what's with the speech? I would get a crash pad if I could afford it, it's not a crutch. For one thing, I don't think I'll ever be good enough to climb with a crutch, they're cumbersome enough on the ground, let alone bouldering with them. And second, can you save you holy zeel and speeches for other places in your life? I got into this because everyone I met was 150000000000000% supportive, I've yet to meet a foul tempered climber. Even the absolute rock gods will throw a genuine compliment at you when you're pulling something that they could do in their sleep.
So what gives?


kriso9tails


Oct 11, 2001, 5:40 PM
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A crash pad is a form of pro. It takes skill and judgement to use a crash pad just as it takes skill and judgement to place pro. A climber needs to know when a crash pad will protect just as they must know when they can fall on their gear.

I guess what I'm saying is why are crashpads a crutch, and rope and gear a safety measure?

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