|
climbchick
Jan 13, 2002, 4:14 AM
Post #1 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 29, 2001
Posts: 808
|
Today I did my first trad climb -- fake lead on an easy crack. It was awesome -- somehow I KNEW I was going to like trad a lot more than sport! But I do have one question. Do trad ratings take into consideration the difficulty of placing pro? For example -- would a 5.10 trad route have moves as hard as a 5.10 sport route or would the actual moves be easier and the placements more difficult?
Now I get to start shopping for a rack, YEAH!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
aulwes
Jan 13, 2002, 7:37 AM
Post #2 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 26, 2001
Posts: 703
|
Yes, it is the same rating.
I see where your comming from. Some routes totally change if you place your pro into a bomber hold and loose another place to hang onto. Keep on climbing! & Be Safe!
|
|
|
|
|
climbchick
Jan 13, 2002, 3:50 PM
Post #3 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 29, 2001
Posts: 808
|
Thanks for clearing that up, you guys. At the moment I can't even IMAGINE being able to hang onto a 5.10 while trying to place pro . . . yikes
Stu, one of the very first things that occured to me up there was that I was going to have to get good at eyeballing the placements -- I spent so much time fumbling around with pieces (and dropping a couple) that my arms started to wear out from hanging on. I dropped a nice big tri-cam so it's a good thing my belayer wasn't right under me!
It was also quite a job trying to get the pieces off the biner with one hand and quite a few ended up in my mouth. I'll probably spend a lot of time just practicing this aspect of it on the ground. Another thing I wasn't expecting was the weight of all the gear around my waist . . definitely had to move a bit differently. I put everything on my harness gear loops -- does it help to get one of those over-the-shoulder slings? Gotta say I felt very COOL clanking around with all the hardware hanging off me, even though not a single piece of it was mine!
|
|
|
|
|
crackwhore
Jan 13, 2002, 5:04 PM
Post #4 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2001
Posts: 195
|
first lets review...
the yosemite decimal system (Y.D.S.) was devised, by the early climbing pioneers, as a system to give an objective difficulty or experiential rating to a climb.
some early climbers thought this rating should reflect the single most difficult move on the climb, while others (Royal Robbins included) thought the rating should encompass the OVERALL experience.
this debate has never been resolved.
as a result, ratings are as subjective (not objective) as the climbers who rate them.
there is no doubt among those of us who travel extensively that 2 standards are in place. for this reason it helps to know the history of the area you are climbing at.
most traditional areas are going to be stiffer on the grades.
heres a few examples:
Yosemite Valley (the namesake for the Y.D.S.) didnt recieve its first 5.14 until '96. read into that what you like.
Utah climbers will appreciate this one. compare any .11d sport climb to the Big Baby at .11d (indian creek). would bolts make this any easier??? i dont think so.
Bircheff Williams V. any .11b sport climb??
Astroman @ .11c V. any .12a sport climb??
Satans Corner (l.c.c.) @ 5.8 V. any .10a sport climb.
i rest my case.
[ This Message was edited by: crackwhore on 2002-01-13 09:10 ]
|
|
|
|
|
joemor
Jan 13, 2002, 11:52 PM
Post #5 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2001
Posts: 609
|
mmmmmmmmmmmm trad rocks.....
buying the gear tho expensive, is almost as fun as using it...... i said almost!
joe
|
|
|
|
|
crackwhore
Jan 15, 2002, 4:12 AM
Post #6 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2001
Posts: 195
|
i love the brit system...
exposure and difficulty in one rating.
|
|
|
|
|
climbchick
Jan 15, 2002, 4:34 AM
Post #7 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 29, 2001
Posts: 808
|
Thanks for the responses. I'm going to get a shoulder sling and try putting fewer pieces on each biner. I'll probably be back here with lots of questions because now that I've had a chance to shop around a little bit, I'm totally confused just by all the MANY different brands and shapes of stoppers -- and that's just a start, I didn't even get to cams yet! I'll spare you all the obvious and probably asinine questions though and will be back after I've done some research and read a book or two. Could anyone recommend a good book that deals exclusively with trad?
|
|
|
|
|
coach
Jan 15, 2002, 1:20 PM
Post #8 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 11, 2001
Posts: 3348
|
ClimbChick,
You might want to get the Falcon Guide, "Advanced Rock Climbing' by John Long and Craig Luebbens and "Climbing Anchors" by John Long (also Falcon Guide). Good explanation and pics. I found that starting with a good set of nuts and hexes and learning to place them first before moving onto cams worked best for me. Shopping for your rack will be lots of fun but look around at all the gear before running out and buying something. Have fun!
Climb On
|
|
|
|
|
reno
Jan 15, 2002, 1:39 PM
Post #9 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283
|
I noticed the extra weight on the harness makes for some ... um, interesting?... movement issues when I climb. Though I decided that this might not be a bad thing, as the extra weight can only serve to help me become stronger. I now will often rack up a few pieces of gear even if I'm on TR or a sport route, just for the extra conditioning bonus. It may look silly, but it helps.
Anyone else do this, or am I just wierd (quite possible)???
Best,
JRB
|
|
|
|
|
diarmid
Jan 15, 2002, 1:52 PM
Post #10 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 1073
|
I always throw on extra for conditioning, but then, I play a wierd climbing game. I like to go for a climb and do it the first time without beta. This means I always take the greater portion of my gear (excluding a few big items or small items depending on how I read the climb from the ground .. because I have no idea exactly what I will and will not need! I rarely make it first time (once I think!!) Like was mentioned - once you get to know trad and your gear well, you should (with knowledge of the route and/or good route reading ability) be able to pare your rack down to only what you'll need. In the meantime, all hail the nut/hex hula skirt!!
|
|
|
|
|
climber1
Jan 15, 2002, 8:50 PM
Post #11 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2000
Posts: 484
|
as previously mentioned, ratings are ratings.
having said that, trad leads are mentally more challenging than sport leads because of the need to place gear. this is even more so when on a poor stance.
|
|
|
|
|
atg200
Jan 15, 2002, 8:58 PM
Post #12 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 4317
|
Well, ratings should be ratings, but they often aren't. The ratings seem to even out above 5.10, but most trad ratings are much stouter at 5.9 and below.
This is highly dependent on the area however. Here in Colorado, there are 5.9s at Table Mountain that are easier than 5.7s in the South Platte. On the other hand, South Platte ratings seem stout compared to Lumpy Ridge and a little softer than Vedauwoo - and all of these are trad areas with similar types of climbing.
Bottom line, ratings don't matter. Welcome to trad climbing-it is great fun and opens up a limitless number of climbing possiblities for you.
|
|
|
|
|
mikedano
Jan 15, 2002, 9:19 PM
Post #13 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 2001
Posts: 388
|
I agree that all ratings are all arbitrary. (But still useful.) But beyond that, I would say that trad climbing differs fundamentally from sport climbing because sport is primarily face climbing while trad is primarily crack climbing. The basic moves are just different, I would say. So this makes ratings even that much more arbitrary. And beyond even that--TRAD RULES!
|
|
|
|
|
atg200
Jan 15, 2002, 9:27 PM
Post #14 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 4317
|
Not totally true. There is plenty of trad face climbing out there-the Gunks, Eldorado Canyon, Red Rocks, the Needles in SD, etc. Some of it is runout slab climbing, but the Gunks has incredible steep faces and roofs with bomber gear and almost no vertical crack systems.
Gunks 5.5 face moves often feel like sport 5.8 face moves. Vedauwoo 5.6 handcrack feels like Lumpy Ridge 7+/8- handcrack.
Ratings are useful, but a good rule of thumb is to drop down two grades or so until you get the feel of a new area.
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Jan 15, 2002, 9:47 PM
Post #15 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
Trad=Pucker Factor
Pucker Factor=Adrenaline
Adrenaline=Great Climbing
Give me an exposed roof that takes bomber pro, and I'm happy.
rrrADAM
|
|
|
|
|
camhead
Jan 15, 2002, 11:48 PM
Post #16 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
|
All I'm going to say about ratings is that cracks are VERY different from face climbs.
|
|
|
|
|
addiroids
Jan 18, 2002, 6:22 AM
Post #17 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 11, 2001
Posts: 1046
|
CRACKWHORE said:
the yosemite decimal system (Y.D.S.) was devised, by
the early climbing pioneers, as a system to give an
objective difficulty or experiential rating to a climb.
some early climbers thought this rating should reflect
the single most difficult move on the climb, while others
(Royal Robbins included) thought the rating should
encompass the OVERALL experience.
AND something to the effect that Yosemite is the "namesake" of the YDS.
Well, close. Actually the Tahquitz Decimal System was developed by the rock climbing gods who climbed at Tahquitz Rock just outside the town of Idyllwild, CA. It was originally named the Wilts-Sierra Decimal System, but since Mr. Wilts was a humble man, it was renamed to the Tahquitz Decimal System.
It wasn't until Yosemite Valley was "discovered" by climbers that the name was ADOPTED to the Yosemite Decimal System since that became (and still is) the Center of the Rock Climbing Universe, leaving Tahquitz as the training ground for all the old stone masters while they tried to hash out a living in LA and San Diego while saving for a trip to The Valley.
BONUS: What climber proposed the "a,b,c,d" subdelination on the YDS, and what year did it occur??
EXTRA SUPER SPECIAL BONUS: What was the first climb to be rated with this new system??
If you get these, I will buy you a beer(s) if we ever climb together.
TRADitionally yours,
Addiroids
|
|
|
|
|
natec
Jan 18, 2002, 7:59 AM
Post #18 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2001
Posts: 667
|
Addiroids,
Wasn't it Jim Bridwell who proposed the a,b,c,d subgrading? I'm pretty sure on this one. I unfortunately do not know any further answers to your bonus questions. I must study harder.
|
|
|
|
|
passthepitonspete
Jan 18, 2002, 1:04 PM
Post #19 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
|
Ah, yes - nice trivia.
I was going to guess the Bird, too, but I'm not certain. You've climbed with him, so I think I'll stick with that guess.
I haven't had the opportunity to climb with him yet, but I've enjoyed quite a number of his stories! I especially enjoyed it when he told me what DFU on the CRS really means!
If you want to know about a Bridwell-proposed grading system that I believe to be superior to the new wave/old school aid rating system currently confusing the H-E-double- hockey-stick out of all of us, check out my link above. You'll find that bit near the bottom in the brown text block.
Cheers,
Dr. Pee'd On
Damn, a beer. Now you've got me thinking. If I answer this question, then you will owe me about twenty-five beers instead of merely a case.
|
|
|
|
|
pwsk
Jan 24, 2002, 12:12 PM
Post #20 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 54
|
Don'y wory Reno, I do the same thing...
With respect to the grades, I have found that hear in SA usually the trad grade is one higher than of a technically equally difficult route on sport. Generally grades are fairly subjective I think - an 18 for one may feel like a 25 for another - I guess that just means that you aren't on an 18 level of climbing yet, and that is probably the whole idea of the grading system. Pretty useful hey... I try not to pay much attention to gradings though, as I have found that as soon as the route starts getting difficult I think to myself:"maybe I can't climb a 23 yet" when instead I should be thinking of a sollution to the problem.
Rock on...
|
|
|
|
|
madscientist
Jan 25, 2002, 6:32 PM
Post #21 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2002
Posts: 159
|
A 5.10 trad climb will have moves as hard as a 5.10 sport climb. I am sure that after your first trad lead it may seem like placing protection on a trad climb makes that type of climbing much harder, but just keep practicing. Continue climbing routes where the climbing will not be that difficult, the you will get more used to it. Then cracks may start to feel safer than some sport climbs. Once you know your rack, then you will place pieces quickly and on your first try. Then a crack will start to feel pretty safe, and safer than some sport climbs. After all you get to choose where you place the gear, and on the sport climbs someone else has decided where to place the protection and how long of a fall you will take.
|
|
|
|
|
crackwhore
Jan 27, 2002, 5:47 AM
Post #22 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2001
Posts: 195
|
Yosemite is nonetheless the "namesake" of the Yosemite decimal system (Y.D.S.) which is the system we currently use in the USA.
sounds like you have been reading Pat Ament or John Long er somethin'.
also sounds like the trivia cards should stay in the trivia deck.
please specify...
first sierra climb with a decimal grade??
or first Yosemite climb with a YDS grade??
what about the first 5.9 at Tahquitz??
first Yosemite 5.10??
|
|
|
|
|
bold
Deleted
Feb 4, 2002, 10:48 PM
Post #23 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
I think when climbing traditionally you look for your own route, so therefore,it's mentally harder. When sport climbing a bolted route you focus on the route that's already placed so it's giving to you the route to take. To answer your question i think trading is harder.
|
|
|
|
|
crackaddict
Feb 13, 2002, 4:04 AM
Post #24 of 24
(4490 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2000
Posts: 1279
|
Heres how I see it. Its all what you have the most experience at. Climbing with improper technique will make any climb harder. If you were used to 5.10 sport climbing then jumped on a bolted 5.10 slab route you would notice a serious increase in difficulty. Same rating right but, different technique. Same as if you climbed 5.10 hand crack then jumped on to a 5.10 offwidth. If you did'nt know how to climb offwidth you would probably go running home to your mommy to fix your bruised ego. Two totaly different types of climbing. Each one of these has its own style of how to climb and place gear. Once you've done it enough it gets easier. So my advice to you the more practice you get the easier it will seem. I don't know if that helps but thats my opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
