Has anyone in here ever heard of a biner breaking in a fall or otherwise (other than testing) due to gate flutter? While I'm on the subject, has anyone ever heard of a biner breaking (other than testing)?

How effectively do HotWires prevent "whiplash" (carabiner gate oscillation)?
Whiplash is a sudden opening of a rope-carrying carabiner's gate in
reaction to a sudden force, such as when the biner is loaded by a fall,
or if it slams against the rock. On very rare occasions, this
instantaneous opening of the gate can result in carabiner failure, if the
biner is loaded at the precise moment the gate is open. The low mass of
the HotWire's gate helps to eliminate whiplash, as does its stiff gate
action. By using high speed photography, we observed how HotWire gates
reacted to sudden forces. The wire gates proved to be much less
susceptible to whiplash movement, where conventional biner gates
oscillated substantially more.

Search Result 1From: Hank Moon (onkaluna@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: I read on Gunks.com View: Complete Thread (17 articles)
Original FormatNewsgroups: rec.climbing
Date: 2001-10-06 09:45:17 PST

"hi" wrote in message news: > The primary reason you use a wiregate biner is to prevent gate
> whiplash which can cause the biner to open when loaded thereby
> weakening the biner. Gate whiplash occurs at the end of the draw
> clipped into the rope, so you want the wiregate on that end.

Hihi

In the interest of correcting a popular error in concept and syntax,
it should be noted that "whiplash" is not the same phenomenon as "gate
flutter." Whiplash refers to a peculiar behavior of rope that was
witnessed in laboratory drop tests conducted in Lyon, France in the
late 80's/early 90's (memory failing).

The tests were filmed with a high speed video camera in order to study
the affects on rope and 'biners in slomo. It was in these videos that
the "whiplash" phenomenon was observed: when the load released, the
rope would first drop down through the biner, then as the load fell,
reverse direction (now passing up through the biner). The slack rope
would then loop up high above the 'biner (up to 4 feet or so if memory
serves - haven't seen the videos in years) and finally "whip" against
the 'biner as the test load bottomed out. Quite frequently, the rope
would unclip itself from the 'biner as it did the whippin' thang.
Presumably, actual whiplash doesn't happen so much (if at all) in real
climbing due to mostly low fall factors, and friction between rope and
rock. True whiplash seems to be a high-FF lab phenomenon. You can
simulate whiplash at home with an anchored draw - doorknob works fine
- and accessory cord. Run the cord through the draw and give a swift
yank on one end to see the loop appear above the draw. Now imagine
much heavier cord and much, much, higher velocity and energy.

Gate flutter was also (first?) observed during these same tests, and
to my knowledge, has not been witnessed outside of a laboratory.
However, since we know it can happen in a lab, it has been suspected
as a possible cause of carabiner failure in the field. Keep in mind
there are many other such causes, most of which result in an open
gate: 'biner smacking rock, gate pushed open by rugosity, 'biner
loaded over edge, etc. True gate flutter results from vibrations
imparted to the carabiner from the rope moving rapidly through it. A
momentary opening of the gate due to the frame hitting rock, or sudden
loading/orienting of the draw is not gate flutter. The confusion of
the two concepts may have arisen due to gate openings observed when
the draw is suddenly loaded or "whipped". To finish off gate flutter,
it is important to note that carabiner failure during the tests
occurred so seldom that researchers resorted to taping the gates open
to induce failure. All failures occurred only in high-FF situations.

One result of these tests was an increase in the open gate strength
requirement of the UIAA standard. More info on gate flutter and other
topics of interest to climbers may be found at

http://www.uiaa.ch/journal/20003.pdf

Be sure to check out the article on page 4, "Karabiner Breakings when
Using a Figure-of-Eight." Unfortunately, this type of stuff is rarely
reported in the US climbing press, articles by Clyde Soles being the
most notable exception. Guess Usenet forms a limited alternative
"press" of sorts. Thank E.M. for rec.climbing, and pardon the thread
pirating.

Hank

> opinions are mine, not my employer's <

Search Result 1From: Hank Moon (onkaluna@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: I read on Gunks.com View: Complete Thread (17 articles)
Original FormatNewsgroups: rec.climbing
Date: 2001-10-06 09:45:17 PST

"hi" wrote in message news: > The primary reason you use a wiregate biner is to prevent gate
> whiplash which can cause the biner to open when loaded thereby
> weakening the biner. Gate whiplash occurs at the end of the draw
> clipped into the rope, so you want the wiregate on that end.

Hihi

In the interest of correcting a popular error in concept and syntax,
it should be noted that "whiplash" is not the same phenomenon as "gate
flutter." Whiplash refers to a peculiar behavior of rope that was
witnessed in laboratory drop tests conducted in Lyon, France in the
late 80's/early 90's (memory failing).

Thanks for defining the two. I think most of us use the terms interchangably. In either case wire gates cut down on both whiplash and flutter (if I am reading correctly).

Standard gates flutter! WHen they do they reduce the biner strenght to less then 10kn which can break under a leader fall. Goran Kropp had broken biners in the fall that killed him. Open biners do fail.

I thought Kropp's pro pulled out!