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igcuesta


Jul 8, 2003, 7:47 AM
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Stolen quickdraws on projects.
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I think it is a common practice everywhere to leave most of the bolts (all but the very first of them) clipped on hard routes to try them whenever you want. Recently on crag I have been climbing in, these left quickdraws have been stolen twice on the same route. The access to the crag and the route itself (8b) are not easy, so it makes me think that the thieves are climbers also. I cannot understand why anybody could do such a thing (draws are rather old and have just a biner and a mallon). More strange if they are climbers. Have you ever suffer thefts like this on your crags?


kalcario


Jul 8, 2003, 7:51 AM
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which is the crag where you lost your quickdraws?


Partner rrrADAM


Jul 8, 2003, 7:52 AM
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Bad "Climbing Karma" will get 'em.

I remember hearing of a climber who was stealing draws on rappel, and rapped off the end of his rope. He got pretty busted up, and even tried to deny he was doing it, but one of the rescuers recognized the draws on his harness.


daisuke


Jul 8, 2003, 7:52 AM
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it's commonly understood here that a draw on the hanger is considered booty, if the whole route is left up then people might hesitate to take them and wait a couple of days, if they're still there then they're gone

however your problem comes with an 8b and very few people can climb that hard so it has to be a climber unless you can rappell down that route. I'd say you're going to catch him if it has to be lead climbed

D


petsfed


Jul 8, 2003, 9:00 AM
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The rule of thumb for most everywhere I've been was 1 draw is booty, 12 draws is a project. Its okay to take the one draw (if all other bolts on said route are empty) and hopefully put a lost and found notice, but to take all of the draws off some dude's project is waaaaay wrong. Deserves a severe beating.


flamer


Jul 8, 2003, 9:27 AM
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I guess I think leaving draws hanging is wrong. If you can hang them once you should be able to hang them twice. Take your gear with you when you leave and you have no worries.
josh


cloudbreak


Jul 8, 2003, 9:30 AM
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Ditto to Adam........Karma will smooth the waves....rest assured!!


billcoe_


Jul 8, 2003, 7:59 PM
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Petsfed: Are you saying you can take 1 - thats OK, but all of them is not. hmm. Seems like with 12 theres that much more trash on the route if that was the reason you could take the 1 and 1 is OK. 1 is not stealing but 12 is? Getting one is like a gift. 1 is trash but not 12?

I wouldn't want them, but the logic seems unusual. Couldn't you also just clip them as you climb the route? Then would you just take like the ...lower 1, or a middle one, but not 2? 2 would be stealing, but not just 1? Taking 1 is sharing?

Nmmm....

Bill


ksiaclimber


Jul 8, 2003, 8:15 PM
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personally I think if there are draws on a route. they are mine if I can get to them. Its kindof like a reward for me if I can get that far on a route.


baywolf


Jul 8, 2003, 8:48 PM
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I had some punk a## steal a cam from me while I was on a single pitch climb at castlewood canyon. It pisses me off more than anything when someone steals from me. I hope the cam pulls when the nancy takes a whipper and breaks his leg.


jt512


Jul 8, 2003, 8:52 PM
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Petsfed: Are you saying you can take 1 - thats OK, but all of them is not.

No, what he is saying is that if there is only one draw up on the route, you can assume it was bailed on and abandoned, and hence is bootiable, but if there are several draws up, then someone has left them up to work the route, and taking them would be theft.

-Jay


jt512


Jul 8, 2003, 8:53 PM
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personally I think if there are draws on a route. they are mine if I can get to them. Its kindof like a reward for me if I can get that far on a route.

Then you are a thief.

-Jay


climbsomething


Jul 8, 2003, 9:10 PM
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HEY EVERYBODY! It's the booty-vs-project-draws debate!

This is, like, the BEST SUBJECT IN THE WORLD!

Almost.

Hey, if I climb a 5.12c/d to remove the pesky 16 draws obscuring my view of the hangers (hey man, I wanna know if they're Petzl or Metolious!), and it's the first 12c/d I've ever climbed, can I call myself a 12c/d climber? I only took once.


mike_ok


Jul 8, 2003, 9:17 PM
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In reply to:
personally I think if there are draws on a route. they are mine if I can get to them. Its kindof like a reward for me if I can get that far on a route.

Then you are a thief.

-Jay

You're walking along the street, you see a ten dollar bill. You pick it up and put it in your pocket.

You're walking along the street, you see a wallet. *Hopefully* you pick it up and try to find the owner.

The point is that one draw left typically signifies either something someone missed on the cleanup, and as such will probably never be returned for (you can keep it) or they just couldn't get to it (you can keep it). If there's a bunch of them, then its probably a project and should be left alone.

It's not theft to pick something up and keep it; there may be a fine line but one draw is certainly not close to that line.


jt512


Jul 8, 2003, 9:36 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
personally I think if there are draws on a route. they are mine if I can get to them. Its kindof like a reward for me if I can get that far on a route.

Then you are a thief.

-Jay

You're walking along the street, you see a ten dollar bill. You pick it up and put it in your pocket.

You're walking along the street, you see a wallet. *Hopefully* you pick it up and try to find the owner.

The point is that one draw left typically signifies either something someone missed on the cleanup, and as such will probably never be returned for (you can keep it) or they just couldn't get to it (you can keep it). If there's a bunch of them, then its probably a project and should be left alone.

It's not theft to pick something up and keep it; there may be a fine line but one draw is certainly not close to that line.

That's what I've been saying. Try reading the quote I was replying to.

-Jay


mike_ok


Jul 8, 2003, 9:40 PM
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That's what I said. Try reading the quote I was replying to.

-Jay

Not that it matters (if we agree, we agree), but I'm a little confused. You wrote "Then you're a thief" to the first post (and I've read it several times trying to figured out where I went wrong if I did) and i'm saying, you're NOT a thief if you pick up a biner left on a route. Given the analogy, I'm saying it would be the same as picking up a ten dollar bill.


yotrepo


Jul 8, 2003, 9:41 PM
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Yes to rrradam, petsfed, baywolf, jt512, and mike ok. :)

No to flamer, billcoe, ksiaclimber :?


jt512


Jul 8, 2003, 9:44 PM
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That's what I said. Try reading the quote I was replying to.

-Jay

Not that it matters (if we agree, we agree), but I'm a little confused. You wrote "Then you're a thief" to the first post...

I wrote "You're a thief" in response to this: "Personally I think if there are draws on a route. they are mine if I can get to them."

He was writing about taking multiple draws off a route.

-Jay


mike_ok


Jul 8, 2003, 9:45 PM
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I wrote "You're a thief" in response to this: "Personally I think if there are draws on a route. they are mine if I can get to them."

He was writing about taking multiple draws off a route.

Gotcha. That would be more like picking up a wallet. THIEF!

I had read his *drawS* and *they* plural as a generic plural. ie, a universal plural that would apply to a single draw multiple times. one more ie, each time he finds a single draw on a route, he could take it. BUT, your interpretation is probably how he meant it.


jt512


Jul 8, 2003, 9:49 PM
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HEY EVERYBODY! It's the booty-vs-project-draws debate!

This is, like, the BEST SUBJECT IN THE WORLD!

Almost.

Hey, if I climb a 5.12c/d to remove the pesky 16 draws obscuring my view of the hangers (hey man, I wanna know if they're Petzl or Metolious!), and it's the first 12c/d I've ever climbed, can I call myself a 12c/d climber? I only took once.

It depends (tm). If you clean the draws on the way up, you can call yourself a 12c/d soloist.

-Jay


neeshman


Jul 9, 2003, 12:03 AM
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I agree with flamer, take them if they are there for more than a day. The climber who left them does not own the rock. I try to be a very curtious climber all the time. It just angers me when people complain about draws getting stolen, especially when they were stolen once and then they left another set up... and they got stolen too. How bout next time you leave your wallet, bank account#, ATM card & Pin, and your social security card directly underneath the route along with your draws.

Maybe if the world was a perfect place then yes, everyone should leave their draws on their climbs and HEY! why not leave a full rack of all the pro your are gonna need, at the base of every trad climb you wanna do... for everyone to use whenever they want! The whole beautiful climbing community can share the gear, that way the cost of gear is split of between many people! Whoo hoo!

The World is not perfect and leaving gear is up to the owner, just be ready to face the fact that it might be taken, and its your own fault if it is. you cannot blame it on anyone else. Modern gear is made to be taken off the wall after climbing, if not by the owner, maybe someone else. CLIMB ON!!!

PS. I know I have no room to talk (Just barley redpointing 5.10's) but if you feel that clipping the bolts every day on your "Project" is too tough and you can only do it with pre-placed draws then maybe you should find a different project. Is it really that hard to clean draws????(Excluding Overhangs of course)


benpullin


Jul 9, 2003, 12:18 AM
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It is a very interesting observation, at least to me, that all of the hard climbers I have ever climbed with, those who have projected routes close to their absolute ability, do not haggle over this 'is it booty or is it a project' question.

If there are multiple draws on a route, and you take them, you are stealing draws from someone's project. If the draws are already on a route and no one else is climbing it, you should feel free to use them and climb the route.

A single draw left on a route should be considered abandoned, and is fair game for the taking.

If you don't understand the advantage of leaving draws on a project, rather than putting them up and taking them down each day, you have never worked on a route near your absolute ability.


climbsomething


Jul 9, 2003, 12:25 AM
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It is a very interesting observation, at least to me, that all of the hard climbers I have ever climbed with, those who have projected routes close to their absolute ability, do not haggle over this 'is it booty or is it a project' question.

If there are multiple draws on a route, and you take them, you are stealing draws from someone's project. If the draws are already on a route and no one else is climbing it, you should feel free to use them and climb the route.

A single draw left on a route should be considered abandoned, and is fair game for the taking.

If you don't understand the advantage of leaving draws on a project, rather than putting them up and taking them down each day, you have never worked on a route near your absolute ability.
Very true. Although, the debate will not end here. The debate NEVER ends around these parts. But, FWIW, Ben is right.

Note that Ben, and his friends, are not gumby blowhards.

..... ..... .....


igcuesta


Jul 9, 2003, 1:26 AM
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which is the crag where you lost your quickdraws?

Peņa Pintada. It's a small granite crag in Madrid. Anyway draws weren't mine.


igcuesta


Jul 9, 2003, 2:24 AM
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As I stated, I thought it was a common and well known practice among CLIMBERS everywhere, to leave draws on hard projects. Now, thank you all, I have seen it is not that way. What makes me sad is that the draws have been stolen by CLIMBERS (I'm pretty sure). I supposed that there was a non-written law establishing that draws on projects were to be respected, at least by CLIMBERS. You showed me it is not true. :cry:

In reply to:
I agree with flamer, take them if they are there for more than a day. The climber who left them does not own the rock. I try to be a very curtious climber all the time. It just angers me when people complain about draws getting stolen, especially when they were stolen once and then they left another set up... and they got stolen too. How bout next time you leave your wallet, bank account#, ATM card & Pin, and your social security card directly underneath the route along with your draws.

Maybe if the world was a perfect place then yes, everyone should leave their draws on their climbs and HEY! why not leave a full rack of all the pro your are gonna need, at the base of every trad climb you wanna do... for everyone to use whenever they want! The whole beautiful climbing community can share the gear, that way the cost of gear is split of between many people! Whoo hoo!

Actually, neshman, the draws were put there for ALL the CLIMBERS that wanted to try the route (there was not only one person trying the route at the time). When I'm working a route and use my gear, obviously, I SHARE my draws with all the people that want to give a try. And I don't need them to pay me the corrosion of my biners :lol:


[quote="neeshman"] The World is not perfect and leaving gear is up to the owner, just be ready to face the fact that it might be taken, and its your own fault if it is. you cannot blame it on anyone else. Modern gear is made to be taken off the wall after climbing, if not by the owner, maybe someone else. CLIMB ON!!! [\quote]

WRONG! The draws left on the route had a mallon on the bolt, so to remove them you need a spanner.

In reply to:
PS. I know I have no room to talk (Just barley redpointing 5.10's) but if you feel that clipping the bolts every day on your "Project" is too tough and you can only do it with pre-placed draws then maybe you should find a different project. Is it really that hard to clean draws????(Excluding Overhangs of course)


It is an overhanged route. Anyway , seems to me that you don't understand what "hard project", and "work on a route" means...

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