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using a spectra daisy chain as an anchor
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mikedano


Jan 21, 2002, 10:29 AM
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using a spectra daisy chain as an anchor
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So my wife bought one of the long spectra daisy chains to use as an anchor sling (tying it to her harness and then using it to clip into the anchor).
I have one and I like it quite a bit because it's so easy to use, you have extra loops to hook a backpack or rack to, and you can easily adjust how close you are to the anchor.
However, I was reading the little pamphlet that came with the daisy chain, and it said NOT TO use it as an anchor sling. What's up with that? Does anyone else use one as an anchor? Isn't spectra supposed to be ultra-bomber? Should I also clove-hitch my rope to the anchor too, just in case?


sonofspork


Jan 21, 2002, 10:34 AM
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I think it is okay to use the end loops to hook yourself up to an anchor. The inner loops are not as strong, so you should not hook yourself to the ancor with them. I'm not sure about this so get some other oppinions.

-sONofSpORk


bshaftoe


Jan 21, 2002, 10:42 AM
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The Black Diamond spectra daisy's are rated at 19kN, their other sewn runners rate at 22kN. I suppose you could use your daisy for an anchor sling, but the individual loops are only sewn to withstand 3 kN, (which is only 674 lbs of force.) So if you expose the daisy to a relatively small tug, you would risk the daisy loops ripping. (Both ruining the daisy and increasing your distance from the anchor. Plus, that ripping noise would scare the heck outta you.)

I would use the clove hitch, it is easy to tie, even with one hand.

[ This Message was edited by: bshaftoe on 2002-01-21 10:50 ]


anth


Jan 21, 2002, 11:11 AM
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i'm not an expert, but i think that once you start ripping the bar tacks on the interior loops, you'll find that the overall strength of the daisy is significantly less than 22kN because its got, well, holes torn out of it.

i don't think they're meant for much more than bodyweigth.

anyone know for sure?

-a


jbur


Jan 21, 2002, 11:22 AM
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Always make your main connection to the anchor with your rope. You can then use the daisy to adjust your distance to the anchor. The individual loops are much to weak to use as your main belay connection. I saw some testing data, can't remember where, where daisy's were loaded to failure. They would rip through the pockets until at the end, then would fail at one of the ripped bar tacks.


climbchick


Jan 21, 2002, 1:37 PM
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yikes, I use my daisy chain to clip into the anchor (either at the top or a ground anchor if I'm belaying). The first person I ever climbed with had me clip in using one of his and I thought that's what they were specifically for! What are they supposed to be used for then, if that's not their intended purpose?


jbur


Jan 21, 2002, 2:05 PM
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I don't know about the other companies, but metolius rates the strength of their daisies at 3500lbs. pulled from the end loops and 800lbs. pulled from a pocket. They also warn that the rope should be your main anchor connection with the daisy used to adjust for comfort. My advice would be to never use a daisy as your sole connection to the anchor, your rope is much stronger. I use them for connecting myself to my aiders, connecting myself to the anchor during rap changovers, and to adjust my distance to the anchor after tying in with the rope.


euphoricclimbing


Jan 21, 2002, 2:32 PM
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Jbur has part of it right. Never, and I repeat never hook yourself with a daisy chain to the anchor. Always use the rope to connect yourself to the anchor. Why, because when you are belaying, while hooked to the anchor with a daisy chain, the force of a fall is directly transmitted to the anchor(static connection). Where as if you are connected with the rope, the dymanic stretch of the rope with lessen the load put your anchor(dynamic connection), thus decreasing the chance of failure. Please read John long's book climbing anchors if not already!


traddad


Jan 21, 2002, 6:58 PM
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No less than Mark Twight (read: Dr. Doom) uses a daisy , or "chicken sling" for hooking into the anchors, and you see this type of system all the time in the Tech Section of R&I and Climbing. Let's face it, unless you're belaying a follower (top rope, low impact force, anyway) off your belay loop and not directly off the anchors, body weight is all that your daisy will ever see. If you are belaying the leader off your harness,I would throw in a second anchor (maybe a clove hitch on the rope)and thrash him or her if they don't get a bombproof piece in within the first 10 feet.
I'm speaking as a trad climber, here.
You sport climbers can do as you please.

Traddad...Darwin is King.


jbur


Jan 21, 2002, 7:29 PM
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I don't think Twight was advocating using the chicken sling as the primary tie in to the belay. It was my understanding from reading it that he used it as a way to clip off to a piece while he finished the rest of the anchor or to anchor off to a station while doing multiple raps. Why build a bombproof multi-piece anchor then clip into it with a loop that will only hold 800lbs, even for a follower. I would thrash the leader if I got to a belay and the only thing attaching us to the wall was one loop of a daisy.


greatgarbanzo


Jan 21, 2002, 9:11 PM
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If you use your daisy for anchoring and loading with great falls you will get injure or kill FOR SURE... the daisys are daisss... they are design for something specifically... they are NOT tested or desing for great loads...


I mean... is that hard to use a cord or webbing for all the things that require great loads???


wigglestick


Jan 22, 2002, 6:57 AM
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Daisy Chains are fine for anchoring yourself to the anchor although most people will back it up with the rope. But you want to remember to not clip 2 pockets together or else you are only using a 800 pound sling instead of a 3500 lb sling. I always clip the end loop along with a pocket.

Also you should never have to rely on a daisy chain to catch a fall. If you are belaying a second, or the leader for that matter, you should run the rope through the anchor so that if there is fall the daisy is not holding the weight of both the belayer and the climber. I think that is what they mean when they say not to use it as a belay anchor.


madscientist


Jan 22, 2002, 8:49 AM
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Daisy chains were designed for aid climbing, and they have a good use if you aid climb. Recently, sport climbers have been using them to hook to the anchor to thread the rope through the anchor. This makes getting off of the climb much easier and faster. The individual loops only hold body weight, and that is there purpose. You should not connect to an anchor with these loops if you are belaying anyone, otherwise you risk shock loading the anchor. It is OK to connect with the loops while belaying as long as a fall by the climber will not put more of a load on the daisy chains.


mikedano


Jan 22, 2002, 10:10 AM
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Hm, plenty of interesting info that I did not know. I started using a daisy chain because my partner did, and never gave it a second thought. Now I will.
One thing I'm also not sure of is anchoring with the rope and a clove hitch. With only 1-2 feet between your tie in and the clove hitch, isn't that too small an amount of rope to absorb the force of a big fall? Ropes are dynamic, yes, but I thought you had to have a good portion of the rope take the force (10-20 ft?), instead of just a few feet.
Thanks again for all the good info.


climbchick


Jan 22, 2002, 10:12 AM
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OK, since I have a BD daisy, I emailed BD right after I first read this thread, to ask them what the daisy was intended for. This is the response I got this morning, verbatim. I'm not sure why they put that disclaimer at the end, but I thought I'd better include it.

BEGIN QUOTE FROM EMAIL

Good question. A daisy is to be used for many things, including clipping in to an anchor and testing aid placements, as well as jumaring, etc. The daisy is a closed loop, and from one end to the other full strength(not full runner strength), BUT- each individual loop is not full strength. So, to keep things simple- when you are clipping into an anchor with a daisy, you can use it to adjust yourself to a comfortable length, but there should also be a full backup, like your rope coming off of the harness and clipped directly into the central anchor point, or the most bomber piece.

Here is the ratings for daisy's...
Nylon Daisy Chain
16kn (3597 lbf) end to end.

3kn (674 lbf) individual pocket strength

Spectra Daisy

19kn (4271 lbf) end to end

3kn (674 lbf) individual pocket strength.

And here are some words from a past email from our former QA manager about daisy's:

Here is my take on the daisy chain use question. When the pocket tack rips out it weakens the material in the main loop. This is why the daisy does not meet full runner strength of 22 kN. The rating is based
on the damage done to the runner by the ripping of the individual pocket tacks. From this you can see that the daisy itself is not
appropriate as a primary anchor. As Jeff points out it is more than fine to use the daisy as an adjustable device for positioning your body in a belay that is already "bomber" (like with your rope). My
recommendation for multipitch routes is to first clip into the anchor with your rope and then use the daisy to get comfortable.

I hope this helps- and let me know if you have any other questions.

Best-

Tommy

Tommy Chandler
(801) 278-5533
Black Diamond Retail, Inc.
2084 E. 3900 S. SLC, UT 84124

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com
http://www.biblertents.com
http://www.scarpa-us.com
http://www.franklinclimbing.com

DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this correspondence is personal opinion and NOT an official statement of Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.

END QUOTE

[ This Message was edited by: climbchick on 2002-01-22 10:14 ]


wigglestick


Jan 22, 2002, 10:26 AM
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mikedano-
You should not have to rely on the dynamic properties of the 2-3 feet of rope connecting you to the anchor. If you are belaying the follower you should either use a device that attaches directly to the power point of the anchor (such as a reverso or grigri) or if you are belaying with an ATC or similar device you should redirect the rope to go through the anchor and then down to the climber so that if they fall you, the belayer, go up rather than being torn between the fallen climber and the anchor. Hope that makes sense.


elcapske


Jan 26, 2002, 5:03 AM
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Hi all, I'm new on this site and I've been trying to enter my profile but I can't get it right just yet. I'm a climber from Belgium and have been climbing for about 12 years now. I have tried it all (and loved it all) from sportclimbing, trad, snow and ice, alpine to bigwalls and bouldering. And I must say when I was reading through here, shivers ran down my spine...You should indeed NEVER use a daisy chain for clipping into an anchor unless you are properly backed up. Just one slip while clipped in to an intermittent loop of the daisy might send you falling to your death! You should always remember that the falls you make on a belay stance are probably the most dangerous falls you can make. Just imagine stretching out to reach....above your belay while clipped in, and you fall. That will be a "factor 2-fall". Meaning the length of the fall is twice as long as the length of the rope given (in this case your daisy). These are the worst kind of falls to make, you'll hardly ever make a factor 2-fall leading, because the quickdraws limit the length of your fall. Add to that the fact that most runners or daisies are static!!! The forces in a fall like that on your belay and on your harness and daisy are huge!!! An intermittent loop will definitely break!!! So might the end loop. If you're interested in comfort on the belay, you can also use a clove hitch and adjust it to be the proper length for you to be comfortable. A climbing rope is stronger AND dynamic so much safer on belays! Also take the advice given here by wigglestick. If you're belaying a leader, always run the rope through the anchor first (by way of a biner or quickdraw) so if your leader falls before clipping in the first piece, he won't take you down with him!!!
Well, at least that's what they taught me.
I hope all this makes sense in English, cause it's not my native language...
Have fun, but, be safe!


talons05


Jan 26, 2002, 8:05 AM
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Ok, here's the deal. This has already been said, I think, but I'm saying it again, just so that you hear the same thing from several climbers:

Tie into your anchors with your ROPE. Then, you can use the daisy chain loops to adjust your proximity to the belay. NEVER use only the daisy, because you could easily be hurt or killed in the event of a fall. The daisy'
s only real application (outside of aid climbing, which I know not much about) is for use OTHER THAN as an anchor.

AW


jds100


Jan 26, 2002, 9:40 AM
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Adding to Wiggle: (I hope this doesn't confuse ya, Mike; I'm trying to clarify a little more.) When you tie into the anchor point with the rope, it's coming from your tie-in knot on your harness, going to the anchor, tied there with an appropiate knot. That bit of rope has nothing to do with the part of the rope that your climbing partner is on; because of the knot at the anchor, it functions independently of the climbing portion (the active portion, so to speak). Then, run the climbing portion of the rope (the part that runs from your belay device to the climber) through a directional biner or quickdraw, also at an anchor (doesn't have to be the main anchor point; in fact it can be a be a piece that is seperate from the anchor matrix, set exclusively for use as a directional) to redirect the pull on you, the belayer, if the climber falls.

It's also in John Longs anchor books, and I believe I've seen it in other sources, too, that in Europe, it is common practice to belay from a belay device that is attached to the anchor and not to the belayer, thus the belayer takes no force from a fall. I tried setting this up a couple of times, but it didn't feel comfortable to me (because it simply isn't what I'm used to). It would certainly be a valuable technique to add to the repertoire, though.

(Wiggle: correct me if I'm wrong about any of this stuff.)

[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2002-01-26 09:44 ]


mikedano


Jan 28, 2002, 10:07 AM
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This has all been informative. Thanks so much to everyone. I'm definitely going to change the way I hook into the anchor. Damn good thing I never had to take a bad leader fall...


maculated


Jan 29, 2002, 11:41 PM
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Okay, maybe I'm slow. It's possible.

One of my climbing partners uses a daisy chain when he's cleaning our top rope anchors and getting set to rappel. At some point, he uses it to hold his weight while he sets up his rappelling device and the rope and I have him off belay. He's not using it to hang there and belay seconders. In any case, this is bad, right?



[ This Message was edited by: maculated on 2002-01-29 23:51 ]


wigglestick


Jan 30, 2002, 6:52 AM
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maculated-
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the use you describe for a daisy chain is perfectly acceptable. They are supposed to be used for body weight only applications. (That does not mean they will only hold a single body weight). You would want to back up the daisy chain anytime that there is a chance that you will either shockload the daisy or in anyway exceed a single persons weight. I use mine all the time to hook into anchors while descending multi-pitch routes. But you should never use the daisy as a anchor for your belay. I hope that makes sense.


traddad


Jan 30, 2002, 11:26 AM
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Ok, the thread about clipping into the anchors with a daisy chain has REALLY gotten my wheels spinning. I have done this on numerous occasions and still believe it to be safe under most conditions. A quick perusal of the Metolius Website (www.metoliusclimbing.com/daisy.asp) finds that the end to end strength of their daisy to be 3500 lbs, while the pocket strength is 800 lbs. Now lets get this straight. This probably doesn’t mean that if you clip correctly into a daisy pocket that the daisy will fail at 800 lbs and off you go flying into space. ONLY the stitching on the pocket will fail, leaving a bigger pocket, and a wad of poop in your pants. This ripping of stitches may in fact effectively act as a sort of “screamer”, limiting the load on the next set of stitches, although I would never depend on this (it was not a design criteria). Abrasion caused by the breaking of stitches may, however, weaken the webbing to the point that it fails at less than 3500 lbs, but probably not by much.
Now lets move on to clipping the anchors and belaying. Does anyone belay a second purely off their harness belay loop any more? (hooked into the anchors, of course, without running it through a directional) While I believe this is safe (the belay loop is one of the strongest parts of your harness) it adds more “links” to the chain. Why go to the effort of building a bombproof anchor and then put at least 3 chain links between it and the belay rope? Also, unless you are diligent in taking all the slack out of the anchor and are aligned in the line of the fall, you are going to get pulled around when the second pops AND, if the second pops, you are basically nailed down until he/she gets back on. (Did someone yell rock?) A better solution might be to belay as this guy is doing: (www.climbing.com/Pages/Techtip_pages/206/images/TT-trad-fig02.html) Notice how he is tied in...Hmmm....
Now I believe this a safe method to tie in, if body weight is all the daisy/runner will ever see, I would probably rather have two tie in points (which is one more than you had on lead). The rope tied off with a clove hitch and a runner would be my choice.
Finally, those who tout tying in with just the rope because you then have a dynamic system need to remember, the rope is designed to operate LONG. A sample 10.5 mm rope (www.spelean.com.au/BW/TM/BWtechdyn.html#dynamic) has a 9 KN breaking strength (roughly 2023 lbs see: http://spelean.com.au/BW/TM/BWtechcon.html ) and elongates 5.2%. If you have say 50cm of rope between you and the anchor, you have only 2.6 cm of elongation (not counting knot tightening, which may be significant). I would submit that this link is essentially static, and should be treated as such. Better to throw in a strong spectra runner (5000 lbs) just to be sure.

Of course, I might be full of shit.

Traddad


rockjock04


Jan 30, 2002, 12:18 PM
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So if daisies are not to be used for as anchors, then how come they are the anchors in every single gym around here? Last time I checked, gym equipment was supposed to be bomber. Another question which pokes my brain. If they are not supposed to be used as main belay anchor, how come they are used as main anchor for indoor lead climbs? Just makes me wonder cause thats all there is at rockquest for indoor lead climb. I would think daisies would be ok to anchor in for if your only top roping right?


wigglestick


Jan 31, 2002, 7:09 AM
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rockjock - I believe when you refer to gyms using daisy chains as anchors you mean the ones they have on the floor that you connect to your harness right? This is a perfectly fine application for a daisy chain. Those are only there for when the "little" kids (150 lbs) they don't get lifted off the ground due to the force of a fall and freak out and drop the climber. In this case the daisy chain is only holding 50 lbs or so at the most. When we talk about not using daisy chains as "anchors" we mean that they should not be used to catch the entire load of climber+belayer in a multi-pitch route type of environment.


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