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** Censorship At Rc.com!! **
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passthepitonspete


Aug 12, 2003, 5:50 PM
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All right, 'fess up?

Who is the coward?

Within the last five or ten minutes, a post was completely deleted - not moved, deleted! - from the Aid Climbing Forum.

The post was written by Rich Copeland [justsendingits] and was entitled,

"Should Gawd be nailed to a pole in camp 5?" [or words to this effect]

In this post, Rich described how when he returned to bear boxes in Curry Village [previously known to climbers as "Camp 5"] he found his gear had been confiscated by the rangers.

The reason his gear was confiscated is believed to be a direct result of RC.com user "gawd" ratting out the climbers.

Although I didn't have any gear stored there, I know several people who were extremely angered to find their gear confiscated, especially since this had worked fine for over three years!

There is a tremendous degree of anger in Yosemite over this.



Please click here to read where gawd ratted out the Yosemite climbers.

So Richard made his new post in the Aid Climbing forum, and within moments, furious climbers [including] responded in anger at gawd's act.

Gawd read the post and responded - he was extremely unrepentent.

Further angst followed, the gist of which was that [to put it kindly] gawd was rather unsportsmanlike in his actions. Several people offered him suggestions, and looked forward to meeting him.

The reason it was in the Aid Forum is that this is the "meeting place" for Yosemite climbers worldwide. Gawd's ratting us out is an extremely serious action that affects all Yosemite climbers evidently in perpetuity.

Translation - we're pissed! Big time!


But my anger is NOTHING compared to what I feel now - that this post has evidently been deleted.

I've searched the place - it's gone. Completely.



** I DEMAND AN EXPLANATION! **

Since when was censorship allowed at RC.com?




I am Dr. Piton,

and I am wicked pissed.

"gawd is a jerk for ratting out the


elrojobdugs


Aug 12, 2003, 6:00 PM
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i agree... free speech... whats going on with rc and deleting posts... ive seen 2 deleted in the past three days... petes and the one about gays... i love women and i found the post extremely odd, but it just asked if there were gay climbers out there. there was no need to delete that post. there was no shocking statements in there... WTF... and in regard to the gawd post... WTF too... gawd obviously felt he could hold his own since he replied to the posts bashing him (which he deserves)... there wasnt anything wrong with the post about gawd... i had nothign to do with the post or the people that are the subject of it... im pissed... this is just gay (pun not intended)... whats next, are u going to kick users of rc.com???


flyinghatchet


Aug 12, 2003, 6:05 PM
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What gawd did is so not cool. If he were in front of me I'd tie him up with cordelette, stuff him into an oversized pig and send him to Camp 5 with a note on his forehead. And elrojobdugs, users have already been kicked off this site before.


elrojobdugs


Aug 12, 2003, 6:07 PM
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well as u prolly noticed i didnt knwo that... complete bs


daisuke


Aug 12, 2003, 6:08 PM
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pete, I was looking at that thread when it got erased, but rest assured I'm one for doing something about this whole situation!

D


passthepitonspete


Aug 12, 2003, 6:13 PM
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PUBLIC PM I SENT TO TREVOR, and am CC'ING TO EVERYONE ELSE:


Trevor,

What's going on? A post has been completely deleted from RC.com!

The post had to do with a confession made by gawd that he ratted out all the Yosemite climbers by emailing the rangers to tell them we were bending the rules by storing climbing gear in bear boxes, which we've done for years unmolested.

Shortly after gawd's claim to inform the tools, all the bear boxes were locked and the gear confiscated!

I can't begin to tell you how pissed off the entire Yosemite community was.

Rich Copeland [justsendingits] made a post in Aid this aft talking about how he had HIS gear confiscated, and made various comments concerning gawd. I called gawd a fool and a coward. Ed [up2top] told me he expressed concern that the post was becoming a flame, and thought maybe it should be moved to Community.

I told Ed that the content of the now deleted post was mild compared to the stuff people have written about me, and which remained, in the aid forum.

There were 15 replies to the post, when suddenly it was completely deleted by persons unknown. It's gone.

I'm EXTREMELY ANGERED.

It is my intent NOT to let this die. Sorry. I intend to get to the bottom of this.

I hope you are as concerned as I about unwanted posts being deleted by censors unknown.

Why wasn't it moved to Community at least?

Or to Archives?

Who did it? Can you find out?


Let's get to the bottom of this asap to make sure that stuff like this doesn't become commonplace around here.

Freedom of speech is FUNDAMENTAL to our survival at RC.com. Without it, and with people deleting stuff they don't like, the website is DOOMED.

[/rant]

Pete



http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37376


CC'S TO THE WHOLE DAMN WORLD.





I'm not about to let this die.

What gawd did was despicable - but deleting a post is even more so.


atg200


Aug 12, 2003, 6:25 PM
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wah wah wah. is there so little in your life that you declare jihad over a missing post? too bad i resigned as a moderator or i would go delete your index post to really fire you up.


passthepitonspete


Aug 12, 2003, 6:35 PM
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You know, Andrew, if every moderator felt the way you do, we would have no website.

A website is a public exchange of information. It can't be censored. Freedom of speech is fundamental. Ask any Merrican.

Freedom of speech means sharing it all - the good, the bad, and the ugly. This one was bad, but hadn't yet got ugly?

Are you a Nazi, Andrew? Do you believe that if a moderator or admin doesn't like a post, it can just be deleted? Do you think that this is not important?

For you to brush off a complete deletion of a post as trivial is insensitive at best, and most likely much worse.

RC.com will be a much better place without YOU as moderator, Andrew Gran.

Good frickin' riddance of YOU.


[My index is of course backed up. Duh.]


climbinganne


Aug 12, 2003, 6:37 PM
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In reply to:
pete, I was looking at that thread when it got erased, but rest assured I'm one for doing something about this whole situation!

D

Hello climbinganne!

This is an automatically generated message.

daisuke changed the amount of time required between your postings in the forums, to 3600 seconds (60 minutes ) with the following comment:

purposely got past the language filter AGAIN


THIS IS WHAT HE WAS DOING...




In reply to:
Good frickin' riddance of YOU.



PETE WERE YOU TARPITTED FOR THIS STATEMENT???


IF NOT DAISUKE...YOU SOME SOME SPLAININ' TO DO




WHAT ABOUT THIS THREAD...

http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37366

WAS RYAN TARPITTED TOO???




OR THIS ONE, WITH A MOD POSTING TO IT...WAS JON TARPITTED???

http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37382




DAMIEN NAZI4LYFE!!!!!


elrojobdugs


Aug 12, 2003, 6:40 PM
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i take back my refute against rc.com... its really not that big of a deal... youre just repeating what u did to make your post removed... flaming and overly flaming at that... its rediculous how your overreacting... step back, take a look, and chill brotha


flyinghatchet


Aug 12, 2003, 6:40 PM
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Pete, I don't agree with Andrew on this one, but I have to say this site will not be better off without him.


bshaftoe


Aug 12, 2003, 6:41 PM
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Sounds like gawd was trolling and caught some whoppers.

What makes you think that the climbing rangers don't read posts here, especially since they contribute on usenet and supertopos.com?


flyinghatchet


Aug 12, 2003, 6:43 PM
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He said he did, and we'll go with that until something shows otherwise.


Partner missedyno


Aug 12, 2003, 6:45 PM
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i'm not sure where the thread went. up2top is the mod for that forum and he wasn't online at the time from what i understand. must have been an admin then.


Partner xcel360


Aug 12, 2003, 6:47 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
pete, I was looking at that thread when it got erased, but rest assured I'm one for doing something about this whole situation!

D

Hello climbinganne!

This is an automatically generated message.

daisuke changed the amount of time required between your postings in the forums, to 3600 seconds (60 minutes ) with the following comment:

purposely got past the language filter AGAIN


THIS IS WHAT HE WAS DOING...

Man, that's messed up. And so is the whole other post getting deleted. Since when can we not speak freely? Did anyone truly feel offended by any of this? Maybe they should learn to except it, and deal with it.

In the words of Voltaire (I think): "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend, to my death, your right to say it"

<=glen=>


epic_ed


Aug 12, 2003, 7:08 PM
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No word yet on who or why it was deleted, but please, fortheluvaGawd! Everyone take a deep breath and try to relax.

Andrew, I'll take this opportunity to publically thank you for the time, effort, and patience you have devoted to moderating the aid forum. You may be getting a PM or two from me looking for some guidance.

Ed


passthepitonspete


Aug 12, 2003, 7:10 PM
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Ed [up2top] told me via PM that he did not delete the post, and I verily believe him.

What I have to wonder is, who would have a motive to delete the post?

Obviously gawd would. But he couldn't, could he? Or is gawd really one of our moderators' secret usernames? It's possible, isn't it?

Did somebody delete the post because it makes RC.com "look bad"? Well, it's true that it's an unpleasant topic, but if you think things are unpleasant here, you ought to have been in Yosemite in Camp 5 last June when incensed climbers found their stuff confiscated.

Gawd admitted to doing this in the post I've linked above. Read it for yourself. You'll find it at the beginning of the post.



Despicable though gawd's act is - and the ripple effect it has had in changing the way Yosemite climbers live - is not the issue here in the General Forum. We will deal with gawd in the Aid Forum, the area where Yosemite climbers [who this issue affects] hang out.

[Whoever deleted the post is a fool to believe it would disappear. It's coming back, with a vengeance. Richard is rewriting his post at the moment. Watch the Aid Forum for a *real* doozy ... if you think the one that was deleted was something, wait'll you see this one...]




The issue here is censorship - the deletion of unwanted posts by coward unknown.

The entire survival of the website is on the line. Without the ability to express ourselves freely, the place is doomed. It smacks of Stalinism.

I write this as one who has been flamed a lot. Some of it was justified, some of it was self-inflicted, but most of it was untrue, stupid, and just plain malicious. [This is OK - I like the attention]

However my point is this - the flames against me were much nastier than this one which was just deleted - yet those flames against me weren't deleted.

Are you aware that the #1 Most Read Topic of All Time as RC.com was a flame about me? It generated over 33,000 hits. You'll find it in the Trip Reports forum. Or check the Top 10, which is linked at left.



Perhaps I over-reacted to Andrew. Certainly some of my anger stems from a personal dispute I have with him, and I allowed it to colour my post.

But mostly, my anger at Andrew is his cavalier attitude - how he simply dismisses something as important as censorship with a flick of the wrist!

How would you feel if you were reading the New York Times, or the Toronto Star, and right in front of your eyes, somebody walked up and took their scissors the very article you were reading, and suddenly it was gone?

What would happen if Sixty Minutes or W-5 or a similar show were publishing something nasty about a politician or whatever, and suddenly the plug was pulled on the cable?

How would you like it if the books were pulled out your library and burned? Maybe not so obviously, but what if a certain volume or two that the librarian didn't like were "removed" or "accidentally" lost.



This is about accountability, people.

And dammit, SOMEONE is going to be held accountable over this.


epic_ed


Aug 12, 2003, 7:17 PM
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If Rich's thread comes back, I hope it's done in such a way as to fit within the parameters of the ToS so it can STAY unedited and un-moderated.

I think the key here is to get a firm explanation as to why it was so offensive as to be deleted. I'll get back with ya as soon as I hear something.

Ed


dirtineye


Aug 12, 2003, 7:18 PM
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This ain't really my fight, but, a few observations about this site, that pretty much apply to other sites too:

1. You step on some admin's pal, you get a warning or a ban or something. people are just that way.

2. Some moderators and or admins are overzealous. Some are too easily offended. Some are having a bad day. Some have big egos or power trips. All will use bad judgement once in a while. BUT, does it really matter in the long run, when by and large things run pretty well around here? Do you need to have a temper tantrum over one stupid post?

3. Free speech in a non-publicly funded forum? HAHAHAHAHAHA forget it! Unless RC.com is publicly funded, by the government, or part of the gov, it's private. And that means, RC.com can do what they want about censorship. You can hold your breath til yo uturn blue and it won't matter. That might not seem fair, but then, you can start your own web page adn say whatever you want-- THAT is free speech. You do not have the right to say whatever you want on someone elses's site, they can choose to let what you say live or die.

4. Some things probably need censoring. Who decides this? Hopefully someone wise and responsible. I'm glad it's not me LOL. Personally, I'd like to see a LOT MORE post moving and deleting, cause there is 99% crap on this site, and even good threads get hijacked and stepped on by dumb-butts, and if it were up to me, and I had the time and the money, Id spend all day cleaning up this dung heap, so be GLAD you avhe the mods and admins you've got! 8)

5. How could anyone tar pitt climbinganne? This makes no sense.

6. PTPP has an ego the size of Seward's Folly, it's true, but think of the entertainment value! Why anyone would want to do something as twisted and sick as aid climbing when there is all that freeclimbing out there is beyond me, but after all, he IS from Canada, and probably was dropped on his head one time to many as a small child. Don't cut him any slack, but don't flame the poor thing either, he really doea a lot for all the misguided aiders. :P

Time to quit before I piss everyone off hahahahahaha.

If this post makes you mad, remember, it's words on a screen on a computer. You coudl be doing something worthwhile instead! IF it made you laugh, I like your sense of humor.


passthepitonspete


Aug 12, 2003, 7:23 PM
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What can I say? Some people "get it," and some people don't.

Curt emphatically gets it.

Ed - the post was a bit offensive, but it was not all that bad fer cryin' out loud! You know full well there are dozens of posts on this website far more offensive than that one was.

Just find out who it was, I'll rant like hell at 'em, let's make sure it doesn't happen again, and life goes on.

In the meantime, please come back to the aid forum for a pasting of gawd.


epic_ed


Aug 12, 2003, 7:29 PM
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Yeah, that's the thing -- I'm not even sure what I missed in that last hour. Did it go south in a hurry with threats of bodily harm?


passthepitonspete


Aug 12, 2003, 8:01 PM
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Perhaps that was a problem. If gawd did indeed do this [send the link to the rangers] as he said he did, then the threat of a public lynching is a distinct possibility!

He'd best have eyes in the back of his head, and steer clear of Camp 5. There are a lot of angry climbers there.

Of course, if it really was a troll, then he could say this too.

But again, the issue here isn't gawd - we'll be dealing with him in Aid shortly.

The issue is censorship - who, and why?


justsendingits


Aug 12, 2003, 8:04 PM
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I can handle having my thread deleted,(although none to happy about it)It's just the way it was done,no PM from whoever did it,explaining why..

Content I guess,but it pales in comparison to MANY other threads I can still look at on this site.I have said way worse before here.Although the title of the thread could have been more tactful."Should Gawd be nailed to the pole at camp 5"

But I did phrase it in the form of a question like Alex Trebeck tought me...



Andrew,I think you did a fine job as Mod. of the aid forum.And thank you for all your work.

R


atg200


Aug 12, 2003, 8:04 PM
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pete - if this smacks of stalinism in your world, i would encourage you to go somewhere where you can see firsthand what stalin created. i just came back from such a place, and you clearly have no idea what reality can be like. in a stalinist society, for even writing something like this you would have disappeared forever. get some perspective.

mistakes happen - moderators and admins are human. i have accidentally deleted a few posts during my time as a mod and admin - i meant to move them or edit them, and i hit the wrong button. shit happens. there certainly is not or couldn't be any sort of administration sanctioned protection of gawd - remember that he was banned in the past for being incendiary, and he is certainly capable of standing up for his own actions right or wrong. my guess is this whole thing is an honest mistake, but i no longer have any way of knowing(nor do i care).

when you go off on a rampage like this pete, you look like a fool. your grandstanding does no good whatsoever, and antagonizes anyone who would have any sympathy for your stance. if it does turn out to be a mistake, i hope you eat your crow and apologize, but i am sure you will not. of all the people who should forgive a mistake, it should be you - i can't count the number of times i got pm's from you to fix up some post of yours that you screwed up in the aid forum, and i've spent more time trying to defend your personal gaffes to other mods/admins even as recently as yesterday. i don't like you much, but i also don't think you should be treated unfairly based on someone's personal dislike.

i never, ever did any unethical moderating in any of my forums while a mod or admin, and i challenge you to prove otherwise. part of the reason why i gladly walked away when ed stepped up was to be rid of dealing with you and the legions of people complaining about you. i did a good job of not acting on impulses when pissed off by people - perhaps you should try to do that as well.


dave1970


Aug 12, 2003, 8:05 PM
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Pete,

Such a post obviously undermines the commercial aspirations of the stakeholders of this site.

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