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kelownaclimber
Feb 4, 2002, 3:12 PM
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Hey all,
We have discussed this before in other topics..http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=6193&forum=45&start=0
however I thought I would bring it up again.It seems that people are going to continue to slam some of our photos until we change something in the voting system(make votes visible to submitters and make sure the people voting know this).By doing this we have a very simple way of making the voter accountable for their vote.I had one of my photos drop from 7.59 to 7.15 in one vote...http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=ListPhoto&PhotoID=2430 Not the greatest scanning but the picture is surely worth more than 1 or 3.I have seen some of the nicest pictures here drop in the same way.Saltspringer has had it happen,Elcapbuzz,rrrAdam,Spike,and many others.It's sad to see this happen after people put all that effort into putting the picture here for others to view.I say let the votes be visible to all.Oh by the way,for all you who are slamming photos,the admin knows who you are.Perhaps they could drop your photos to 1's he he
[ This Message was edited by: kelownaclimber on 2002-02-04 07:14 ]
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russman
Feb 4, 2002, 3:41 PM
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I agree that that scale should be changed. the only problem with showing who votes what rating for each pic is that some of these pics with more than 40+ votes could take a whole page jsut to list who voted and what it was. But I agree that this does not fairly rate most of the photos.
If you look at the gallery from jmlangford you will see he too has had many great pix and most are now voted down to a mid-7 range. very not worthy of that.
jsut helping the casue
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krillen
Feb 4, 2002, 3:57 PM
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I agree fully. We take time and effort out of our lives, put this stuff up people get to judge thm in 1 sec. We should at least get to see who voted and what it was.
The feedback form that was added is great for this too. Helps you improve or know what work and what doesn't. If people don't liek it , they should have the guts to tell you why and how to make it better, instead of poo-pooing photos from annonymity.
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climbchick
Feb 4, 2002, 4:02 PM
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I don't have any problem with the votes being visible, but I don't see why voting low on a picture should be considered "slamming". Presumably the voting system is there so that people can express their opinions. If someone dislikes a picture, they have every right to vote it a 1 or a 0. If the artists can't handle negative feedback, maybe the voting system should be eliminated altogether, or maybe they just shouldn't submit their pictures in the first place.
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cass
Feb 4, 2002, 4:35 PM
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It is just how the cookie crumbles. I haven’t voted lower than an 8 (which is rare), I vote mostly a 10. Even though the 6 states ‘one thumb up’ in reality it doesn’t – it brings the rating down (which goes against what you are voting for). This should be checked out.
Test it out yourself.
The moral of the story, don't vote below the 8.
I've put a topic in defects section about this http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=6469&forum=14
[ This Message was edited by: cass on 2002-02-04 09:02 ]
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biff
Feb 4, 2002, 5:38 PM
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this is how I Personally rank things .. and I think it is a good guideline .. I was thinking of putting something like this in the FAQ .. but then decided that my opinion doesn't matter.
10 - excellent photo - I would set it as my background / wallpaper
8 - really nice - if it wern't for some minor "defect" i.e. slightly out of focus , odd colour, less than perfet composition .. or if the photo is technically excellent, but it just doesn't make me want to save it to my background.
6 - nothing really special but it made me smile
5 - same as 6 but bad scan / small picture
3 - really bad scan / super small picture but still has climbing content.
1 - what is this photo doing on rockclimbing.com
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jmlangford
Feb 4, 2002, 6:57 PM
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Climbchick...just an example...I had a photo posted recently that received 9 straight "10" votes...must have been a pretty decent photo. In the next 3 votes it dropped to about a 7.2...meaning 3 straight "1" votes. Now who is a better judge of the photo, the 9 "10's" or the 3 "1's"? It is obvious some people are voting on the submitter and not the photo.That being said-lets keep it the way it is-it generates more discussion and controversy which I really enjoy. Even though a large portion of my photos get voted low-some deserve it, some don't-I have received a large amount of positive comments from people and that means a lot. I couldn't care less what some malcontent thinks of me or my photos.
P.S.Thank you "T" for helping me see the light on this.
[ This Message was edited by: jmlangford on 2002-02-04 11:17 ]
[ This Message was edited by: jmlangford on 2002-02-04 12:25 ]
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climbchick
Feb 4, 2002, 8:53 PM
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jmlangford -- it's curious that you've decided to accept only the positive feedback you receive as valid and reject negative feedback on the assumption that it could only have come from "malcontents". I believe that I myself have voted pretty low on at least one of your photographs and it had nothing to do with any personal gripe -- I simply didn't like the picture. I would say that the vast majority of users on this site, myself included, have not been trained
in photography and are unable to offer an analytical assessment based on the technical
expertise of the piece in question. When I see a photograph, I judge it from my own purely subjective and emotional reaction to the content, colors, mood, etc. As an artist, you should expect this from most of your audience unless you are submitting pieces for critical review from experts in the field.
As for the photograph you referenced -- how do you know that the first 9 votes didn't all come from biased friends or from those people who automatically give everything a high vote in consideration of the "effort" made by the photographer? I'd be interested
to see this photograph because I wonder if it's one of the ones I've voted on recently.
Having said all that, I'm sure there probably IS a certain amount of vindictive voting going on because that's simply human nature. I certainly just had a momentary inclination to go look up all your photos and vote them 0 just because your post irritated me (I won't). Exposing the votes will probably keep this type of thing in check but on the other hand will probably also lead to even more bickering and foot-stamping from artists who have their egos too wrapped up in the whole thing and can't grasp the fact that some people just aren't going to like all their work regardless of how good they feel convinced it is. If someone is genuinely interested in hearing my subjective and technically worthless
comments on their work, I will be glad to oblige. But I hope that exposing the votes will not end up putting everyone in the position of having to endlessly defend and argue about every low vote they choose to cast.
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rrrADAM
Feb 4, 2002, 10:25 PM
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The votes are an "average"...
Total of all votes divided by number of votes. This meens that if the vote is above 6, and you vote 6, it will come down. The more votes that have been cast for a pic will lesson the impact of this.
A "one thumb up"=6, so if all who vote, vbote 6, it will be a 6. But if 10 vote 10, and 10 vote 6, it will be an 8.
Just to clear up the above reply.
~Adam
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jmlangford
Feb 5, 2002, 12:18 AM
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Climbchick...The ones that voted low don't leave comments as to why they voted low...at least the ones that voted high left comments. What good does a low vote do me in the "constructive criticism" department if I don't know WHY they're being voted low? I appreciate any constructive criticism on my photo's. Not all of mine are good ones-I take lots of crappy pictures-I just post them so there will be a "related photo" in the routes dbase. I am very much an amateur and ALWAYS looking for ways to improve my photography. I really didn't mean to irritate you so!
P.S.The picture in question was Devil's Punchbowl.
[ This Message was edited by: jmlangford on 2002-02-04 16:24 ]
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climbchick
Feb 5, 2002, 12:49 AM
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Peace, JMLangford -- I took your post the wrong way, I think. I see what you're saying and will try to make a point of commenting on the photos I vote on in future, if only so that people know they weren't voted up or down by an expert.
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saltspringer
Feb 6, 2002, 8:18 AM
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Whew! Glad this thread chilled out a little bit...I was getting worried reading some of the comments. Anyway, I think that some people feel a need to vote on every photo they view or a need to vote pictures "up" or "down" as they feel is necessary to bring the photo to its proper standing in the oh-so illustrious ranks of the RC.com gallery! So maybe there should just be a page for new photos (say, a week or two old) and there should be voting on these photos but no ranking until they are no longer "new", that way, people would be voting in a void with no idea on how others voted for the photo. Maybe this would help to bring about more realistic voting on the pictures and eliminate the vendetta votes, friendly votes & "right ranking" votes that seem to be all too prevalent right now. Another option is one that I exercise quite regularly: don't vote!
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jmlangford
Feb 8, 2002, 12:52 AM
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Climbchick...Thanks.Like I said, if I had one of my best pictures up there and it was of some guy rappelling, and you voted a 1 on it because you don't like rappelling shots, I'm OK with that. I understand that most votes on this site are not by experts and people either do or do not like a pic for no special reason. I'm glad we got this ironed out 'cause saltspringer was getting a little uncomfortable with all this hostility going around!
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andy_lemon
Apr 18, 2002, 4:48 PM
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After a picture has been on the 8-10 scale for most of a year users start voting them down. Hence a stellar shot having had votes of 0. After 40 or so votes it takes alot more to move it down. That sucks for Jody though, his photos are always in the top 20 and after a couple of months people vote them off the page. Don't feel bad Jody, my photos only last a day or two on the first page of the gallery!!!
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jmlangford
Apr 24, 2002, 4:51 AM
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Andy...Your pictures are great! Don't let anyone tell you otherwise!
However, I am tired of people with personal vendettas voting down ALL of my pictures.
Not all of my pictures are good, but when I noticed that all of them were voted down by multiple "ones" and NONE of them ranked as high as 8.00, I decided that this voting business really sucks.
I have removed all of my pictures from voting contention so the people that think they are being funny will now have to have the gonads to leave comments or PM me.
THIS POST SURE MADE ME FEEL GOOD!
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pushfurther
Jun 3, 2002, 4:01 AM
Post #16 of 22
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bringing this one back to the top..
has the idea of making people leave comments when rating photos been discussed?
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jmlangford
Jun 3, 2002, 4:40 AM
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I don't know but I don't think it would work unless the vote itself was made visible. Let's just keep things the way they are and just deal with our enemies on a case by case basis. I have had more vindictive voting against my pics than just about anybody and I am now on a semi-friendly basis conversing with my detractor. Don't know if he'll stop slamming my pics with all his fake usernames but it is a start.
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rrrADAM
Jun 4, 2002, 2:43 AM
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Mark and I are currently talking about the pros and cons about this...
Pros:
Makes "harm bombing" or "torpedoing" less prevelant.
Cons:
Will make users create several false IDs to "bomb" photos anonymously.
Is unfair to all previously submitted photos, as users cannot change their vote, therefore they will be at a disadvantage. We are talking about "fairness", right ???
Votes should be anonymous in a "democracey", otherwise they need to explain their vote.
So far, more cons than pros. And I personaly believe that it all comes out in the wash. I still have had more of my pics "bombed" than any other user-but Jody is a close second.
And I do check the photo logs for false IDs that are created to abuse the system here regularly. I have called several users on this via PM, and they have all stopped. And those votes were negated.
~Adam
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jmlangford
Jun 4, 2002, 3:00 AM
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Adam,
When you say that the votes were negated, does that mean they were withdrawn from the votes already made? That would mean that the affected photos would go up in rank, correct?
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pushfurther
Jun 4, 2002, 3:26 AM
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pro-photo submitters will get more feedback on their photos. when i submit a photo and it gets votes, but no comments, i wonder what's going on. negative or positive, i want to know what people think when they see my photos. it would help me get better by getting theoretically unbiased opinions on my work.
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rrrADAM
Jun 4, 2002, 6:10 AM
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The comments section allows for this. If they choose not to comment, we cannot help that. If we make it mandatory to comment when voting, many will choose not to vote because this takes time with a slow dial-up connection.
I have photos with over 190 votes, but less than 20 comments. Big difference. See what I mean ???
The system is not broken, just a few users are, and I cannot fix them.
~Adam
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pushfurther
Jun 4, 2002, 6:37 AM
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[sarcastic]screw you rrradam! if you can't change your policies to fit my wishes, then i'm leaving! and i'm telling everyone bad things about this site!!!!!!![/sarcastic]
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