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pwsk
Jan 25, 2002, 8:24 PM
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What's your feeling on using gear like the gri-gri to belay? I would think that it makes sense to teach someone how to belay properly in the old fashioned way(you know...body belay-O.K. I know it hurts like hell...then with an ATC or Stichplate) and, when they get the hang of it after a while they can switch over to something more..."complex" if you will. I just have a feeling that if one learns with a gri-gri for instance it would make for a lazy belayer!?
Rock on...
[ This Message was edited by: pwsk on 2002-01-25 12:27 ]
[ This Message was edited by: pwsk on 2002-01-25 12:28 ]
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minos
Jan 25, 2002, 8:47 PM
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Don't you think the body belayers said the same thing when ATC's came out. This is the age of technology, things are going to change. And why would the belayer be lazy anyhow? You can't take your hand off the brake rope when you use a gri-gri anyways, because they aren't guaranteed to lock up. Everything else is the same. It takes more work to lead belay with a gri-gri. I don't see where lazy belaying would start. If I had a beginner belaying me, I'd rather they use a gri-gri because of the engineering that went into the device to keep me safe. If you had to learn how to drive, would you rather be in a manual or an automatic.
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kman
Jan 25, 2002, 9:16 PM
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If I had to learn how to drive again it would be in a manual. Automatics suck
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pwsk
Jan 25, 2002, 10:16 PM
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I understand your point on progress and change Minos, but don't you think it is better rather to have the "know-how" than the technology to back you up when something goes wrong??! I do agree that the automatic is great if used correctly, but I would always carry a spare manual on me, and then I obviously have to be able to use it properly, yes the physical action is the same, but don't you think there's a difference in the mindset though...?
Maybe I'm just old fashioned.
Thanks for your insight
Rock on...
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jt512
Jan 25, 2002, 10:55 PM
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
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Quote:What's your feeling on using gear like the gri-gri to belay? I would think that it makes sense to teach someone how to belay properly in the old fashioned way(you know...body belay-O.K. I know it hurts like hell...then with an ATC or Stichplate) and, when they get the hang of it after a while they can switch over to something more..."complex" if you will. I just have a feeling that if one learns with a gri-gri for instance it would make for a lazy belayer!?
I don't think there is much reason to teach new climbers how to body belay, as it is no longer a standard technique for technical climbing.
On the other hand, I don't consider the gri-gri to be the ideal beginner device, either. For one thing, it is more difficult to use than an ATC and, in the hands of a beginner, is more prone to error. I've seen a lot more incidents of climbers being dropped with a gri-gri than with an ATC.
-Jay
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kelownaclimber
Jan 25, 2002, 11:13 PM
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I'll throw my two cents worth in here,as I have personally been dropped 40ft. to the ground!I landed flat on my back and thankfully wasn't KILLED by my INATTENTIVE belayer.He was an experienced climber using an A.T.C. and was NOT PAYING ATTENTION!While a Gri-Gri is not a subsitute for proper belay technique in this case it would have kept me from hitting the ground.If you pull rock down on your belayer and injure them or they are attacked by wasps(know that one too)you may not be their primary concern anymore.For sport climbing this device is by far the best for both beginers and advanced.Teach your belayer well as they have your life in their hands.And for all you belay slaves,please pay attention and stand under the direction of pull....how many times have we seen people belaying leaders from a nice sunny rock 25ft. from the base of the climb.Think about what will happen if the climber falls at all times!!!
Climb hard and safe!!!
[ This Message was edited by: kelownaclimber on 2002-01-27 06:12 ]
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brogan
Jan 26, 2002, 12:26 AM
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Gri Gri's are fine for boring top rope routes but there is no substitute for a ATC on a hard lead route. When you try to pull rope to clip the next draw on a Gri Gri it will lock up and with a ATC the Belayer will at least be able to start feed rope. Oh and it is $15 dollars vs. $55 for a Gri Gri.
[ This Message was edited by: brogan on 2002-01-25 16:27 ]
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sizzlechest
Jan 26, 2002, 12:32 AM
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note the gri gri does not lock up when you lead belay with it properly, just don't use it for trad it is too static
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brinton
Feb 1, 2002, 3:16 AM
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Gri-Gris great. I have a similar experience with someone dropping me from above by not paying attention. It wasn't 40 feet but more like 10. Its a great device. Sure its 55 bucks but it used to be 75 when I bought it a while back. 55 is alot to dish out but when you look at a 40 dollar difference, its just a couple of cases of beer. Just my 2 cents worth
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eshi-1
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Feb 2, 2002, 6:02 AM
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Depends on the use and what you're doing.
I think it's the greatest device for top-ropes and climbing gyms.
I hate the idea of using it for lead climbing. Mainly cuz there where few cases that it led to a rope breaking while stopping a leaders fall. No fun!
As far as learning to belay :
Learn the good old ones first!!!
It will teach you how important it is to keep your hand on the rope.
It has been proven that those who started with a Grigri - ended up letting go of the rope when using other devices.
The power of a habbit, of course.
Start right.
E
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gunked
Feb 4, 2002, 6:24 PM
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The gri-gri works in some situations and not in others. It is NOT a fail-safe device! Outside on sport routes is, I believe, where it excels. Like any other device, it must be used properly and the brake hand must not leave the rope for a second. It does lock up on it's own under heavy load and some speed as well. It is also good for leading indoors. I don't think it's a good toprope device for the gym. Alot of gyms have a double pass at the anchor (basically, a steel tube that the rope is wrapped around twice to increase the friction).
I work at a gym as in instructor. I've tested this theory and while top-roping, the gri-gri sometimes locks up under load and sometimes it doesn't. The extra friction at the anchor is the main reason why it doesn't catch. The gri-gri needs force to lock it up. When I teach the intro class, I make it clear that I feel they should learn the "ATC" style of belaying and use it for at least a few months before learning the gri-gri. It does, in my opinion, breed laziness in the brake hand. If you don't believe me, hang out in a gym for a while. I've witnessed many people at different gyms let go of the brake side to give slack to the climber. It doesn't happen very often, but all it takes is one time to drop someone to the ground to be a bad idea. I've known 3 people who this has happened to. That's too many!
Anyway, That's my two cents (and then some ). I like reading about everybody's experiences with different gear as I'm in an instructing role. But then again, aren't we all as other climbers are watching what we do and learning by example. Thanx everybody!
[ This Message was edited by: gunked on 2002-02-04 10:25 ]
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jt512
Feb 5, 2002, 5:14 AM
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Quote:The gri-gri works in some situations and not in others. ...the brake hand must not leave the rope for a second. ...I've witnessed many people at different gyms let go of the brake side to give slack to the climber.
What you've witnessed is not "laziness," but rather the correct way to feed out rope when the leader needs slack quickly to clip. According to Petzl, the correct way to do this is to take the brake hand off the rope and cradle the grigri in the palm. The fingers wrap around the device, and the fingers hold the cam open. The guide hand then pulls out the requisite amount of slack. Then, the brake hand is returned to its ususal position on the rope.
Here's how Petzl explains it: Quote: At certain times, in particular when the leader is clipping the rope, it may be difficult for the belayer to give slack quickly enough for the climber. To overcome this, slide the hand holding the free end up the rope to the device and manually hold the cam open, while pulling the climber’s rope through with the other hand. The hand blocking the cam must then immediately return to grip the free end of the rope. Caution : to ensure safety, this procedure must only be used on a limited basis and must be executed quickly. There is a risk for the belayer’s hand to be clenched on the GRIGRI at the exact moment of a partner’s fall, which results in him/her losing control of the free end of the rope.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-02-04 21:38 ]
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