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ericontherocks
Jul 22, 2001, 12:01 AM
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Its my thought that bolts should only be placed where trad gear can not be put period.
Lets say there is a route that you are doing on trad gear you get to a point where you have a run out of about 20 feet gear is looking decent a couple feet away,but you can't tell and there is a bolt in front of you. I Would always use it and so would most others even those who are opposed to bolts would not go past thinking that it would be cheating. The bolt made the climb safer to those who are pushing their limit it could have saved a ground fall.
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ericontherocks
Jul 22, 2001, 12:05 AM
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Bolt chopping is almost always wrong...
once a bolt is there...there is now a hole it the rock by chopping the bolt there is still the hole. Now the person who put the first bolt in wants a bolt there so they go and drill a new hole. Now there are two holes in the rock. its a battle that nowbody wins but the rock loses.
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kriso9tails
Jul 22, 2001, 12:20 AM
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If someone decides to place a bolt on a previously established line, then the founder of the route has every right to chop it. If people had done it before without, then it is not needed. If someone doesn't think it's safe enough without the bolt, then they don't have to climb it.
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ericontherocks
Jul 22, 2001, 12:28 AM
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i agree that it should not have been placed there in the first place but how does chopping the bolt out help the situation any.
How can you regulate bolts, beside chopping.
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kagunkie
Jul 22, 2001, 1:46 AM
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Quote:how does chopping the bolt out help the situation any
It serves as a deterrant. If a person knows that if they place a bolt it will be removed they are less likely to bother placing it in the first place.
[ This Message was edited by: kagunkie on 2001-07-21 18:48 ]
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kriso9tails
Jul 22, 2001, 3:38 AM
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It would be easy to camoflage a filled in bolt hole, just as they wan't to camo bolts. It would be like it was never there at all. That is, unless some one bolted a feature, which happens very rarely if at all.
I think that would still serve as a deterrent when the culprit either realizes that his bolts will be romoved, or goes insane trying to remember if he actually placed the bolt to begin with.
[ This Message was edited by: kriso9tails on 2001-07-21 20:41 ]
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kriso9tails
Jul 22, 2001, 4:13 AM
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I'd have to start climbing with a metal detector on hand.
[ This Message was edited by: kriso9tails on 2001-07-21 21:14 ]
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kagunkie
Jul 22, 2001, 5:50 AM
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Its called mutually assured destruction. You place em and Ill destroy em! heh heh heh!!!!
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mnutz
Jul 22, 2001, 7:32 PM
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I don't think bolts should be removed w/o the general consensus of the climbing community. If majority agrees, remove 'em and fill 'em in. It does more harm to remove 'em, if new ones will be put in. IMHO if you can't climb a route w/o bolting it, then ya shouldn't climb it. Leave No Trace means LEAVE NO TRACE!
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coach
Jul 22, 2001, 8:20 PM
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A person that puts bolts on a previously unbolted (and climbed) route displays no ethics about bolting. They would argue that unless you own the rock don't tell them what they can or cannot do. Chopping will not deter them, it will only cause them to put another bolt in later doing more damage to the rock. The answer is to educate climbers about why they should not bolt routes that are already established. There are plenty of bolted routes of all grades, don't mess up those left natural.
Climb On
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kriso9tails
Jul 22, 2001, 8:31 PM
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I don't know, bolting is too much work to just have them removed. Some people might be stubborn, but if it were me who placed the removed bolt, I wouldn't bother replacing it.
I agree that it should be stopped before it starts, educate the new climbers and pump them full of reason (or propaganda) to defend the crags. This way, the ethics around the sport should only evolve if people feel strongly enough to defy tradition and convention.
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climb512
Jul 23, 2001, 2:36 AM
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I think you are a total loser if you have to place a bolt on an already established route.By all means it should be chopped! if someone set the route with no bolts and it is a say a 5.10 and you are a 5.2 climber you have no right to bolt it just so you can climb it or feel safer on it. On the other hand if you can climb 5.12 and dont need the bolt on the 5.10 it doesnt give you the right to chop it and change the route. just dont use it. nothing should be done to change the original route. so unless you are the first to climb it then dont bolt it! Go find a route you can handle without scarring the rock to match your ability.
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krillen
Jul 23, 2001, 4:19 AM
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Each situation is different, and each rock is different. Take it up with the local climbing community/assoc./access group and the land owner. Approaching people in an up front and honest manner will get you more respect and WAY less flack than Rogue bolting. Learn from those who have climbed there longer than you. Bolt or chop it works both ways.
[ This Message was edited by: krillen on 2001-07-23 17:46 ]
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ctclimber
Jul 24, 2001, 1:56 AM
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If its not your route, and it's not bolted, don't bolt it. Other that that bolts are fine. It doesn't take anything away from the climb.
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brenna
Jul 24, 2001, 6:10 PM
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Last night, a group of friends and I were climbing in Big Cottonwood Canyon at Narcolepsy wall. We got in to this same discussion about how things are being practically grid bolted. We were on Narcolepsy itself, a 5.8 route, which used to only have 2 bolts and then the anchor.
Recently a 3rd bolt has been placed in between the two. There is a spot for some semi-decent gear to be placed in between the first and second bolt. No doubt it is a pretty bold lead, no matter how big your balls are- but there was no need for that 3rd bolt. I'd place a hefty bet that the Ruckman's never gave that wanker permission to bolt either. Now getting to my point. No question in my mind (nor in my friends minds) that it should be chopped. I personally won't do it- I'll leave it to my friends who are more the more experienced climbers... but they made this caution- which has stuck in my mind, and I believe it to be good advice: Don't chop it unless you KNOW your gonna get it out. If you start messing with it... don't stop until your done. It is more messed up to jerk the bolt around and then end up leaving it there, than it was for anyone to ever place it in the first place.
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jsm280
Jul 24, 2001, 10:36 PM
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I enjoy Trad the most and feel if there is a route that can bed Trad don't bolt... at most place cold shunts at the top or perm Rap rings.
For the places which cannot be led Tad because the lack of gear placement and you can't top rope it then bolting is okay when you get group concensious (or land owners).
For the places that have bolts already leave them unless they are dangerous, just don't add.
I have passed bolts and placed gear. I don't like bolts, however I would not remove any bolts unless they were dangerous. I don't plan to place bolts EVER....
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woza
Jul 25, 2001, 9:50 AM
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bolts suck but winge winge winge.
if you can chip the bolts then you can chip the rock. if you can chip the rock you can make your own hand holds. why dont you just climb rock with sharpened ice axes.
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jds100
Aug 5, 2001, 1:25 AM
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In my local area we have had to deal again recently with this issue. We've had a rogue chopper vandalize private property, and also another group vandalize and threaten campers and climbers at a recognized (by the land managers and local user groups) climbing area where most routes are bolted, and the average level of difficulty is 5.12. There is trad climbing in the vicinity, as well, and in this specific area, but the area is more known as a sport climbing area.
Over a couple of decades, local climbers developed very good and productive relationships with the various land managers (local, state, federal), and part of that was the establishment of climbing as a recognized use of the lands. The climbing group educated the land management personnel about climbing, and about the need, in some situations, for permanent anchors. For example, permanent top anchors have saved the soil from erosion, have helped minimize the overdevelopment of trails and tramped down areas around clifftops as people would have otherwise been setting up long slings, etc., for top anchors, and certainly saved trees from dying prematurely from stress and overuse as anchors.
The best way to go about establishing or questioning a route is to start with the guidebook for the area. It will probably refer you to shops and/or gyms where you can get more info, and meet local climbers. It will probably give you the history of the area and specific routes, and probably outline a protocal for bolting or removing bolts (who to contact FIRST, etc.). Rogue actions can risk the relationships and hard work that made it possible for anyone to climb in a given area.
As climbers have gotten more skilled and stronger, there has been a concurrent need to climb "harder" climbs, and that has taken us out more and more onto the faces, away from cracks and protectable features. I've seen or heard Royal Robbins name invoked by these trad/eco-terrorists, and I find that more revealing of their ignorance than their spirit. Royal Robbins found himself in awe and respect of Harding's bolted route on El Cap that he (Robbins) had intended to chop; Robbins himself bolted, on Half Dome. And, while there are some (relatively few) trad HARD climbs, the huge majority of harder climbing is on the faces, overhangs, and even slabs that lack traditional protection placements.
If a climber doesn't want to clip a bolt, don't. With rare exception, I agree that that the first ascentionist has set the standard for a given climb, but he or she also can choose to allow bolting later (the Black Dike route on the back side of Half Dome, to name just one). Safety is one concern (as with Black Dike). The first ascentionist may also realize, too, that the risk factors that he or she was willing to accept on that particular day may have been extreme and unacceptable afterwards (stupid?). What if the first ascent is a free-solo? Does that mandate that every climber thereafter may only free-solo that route? What if a climber after the first ascent can do the route with one fewer bolt? Or free-solo it? Does that empower him or her to chop any offending bolt?
I suggest that the best thing to do is to get informed about the area you're concerned with; get involved if it's your own backyard. Respect the work and the climbers that came before you (the heritage and history of the area). Lock your ego in the glove compartment of the car before you hike to the climbs. Get a lot of advice before you bolt; get permission from whomever or whatever group you need to contact. Don't chop; contact the right person or group for information and/or to complain.
Hopefully we're moving past the days of grid-bolting, and rogue chopping, as well. I think the egregiously uninformed and the zealots are at the ever-shrinking extreme ends of the climbing spectrum, and that's to all our benefit.
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2001-08-04 18:31 ]
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badger
May 8, 2002, 10:58 AM
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I, for one, appreciate fixed anchors. Whoever has the skill and the money to hammer drill into Rock Canyon quartzite gets my respect. I don't have any problem with gridded routes, especially in popular sport climbing areas. They make climbing safer, and more accessible to newbies.
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verticallaw
May 8, 2002, 4:01 PM
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I think that this has been hashed over alot in many forums. My belif is that if you chop a bolt on a route that is not f/a'd by you than you are just as guilty as someone who places a bolt on a route that they did not f/a. unfortunatly there are so many hard core sport climbers and trad climbers that cannot leave each others routes alone. Recently I was at a crag established by my partner several years ago. This crag was deveolped as a sport wall and was done so that he would be able to teach lead techniques to newbies. he spent alot of time assesing and bolting this crag with the permission of the land owner. When we got there some jackass had chopped all the bolts save for the rap station. So not only is my partner pissed but also the land owner as he was happy to see the newbie traffic that came with us to learn . This crag is now facing being closed because someone took it upon themselves to undo what was allowed to be done. And just as a note yes this crag could have been lead trad and was still in a postion to allow that it was designed as a teaching aid (all 10 fu**ing meters of it) I am amazed that this issue came to a crag that is no higher that my sundeck.
IF ITS NOT YOURS TO CHANGE LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!!
Mike
P.S. I know that I will get flak for this by some unnamed trad climbers but like that would be a first
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pianomahnn
May 8, 2002, 4:06 PM
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I love it when year old threads are brought to the surface.
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pmagistro
May 8, 2002, 6:26 PM
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Everyone has their own personal ethic when it comes to climbing. Some of us live for long trad routes, others want nothing more than a field of aesthetic boulders. And there are climbers who want hard, bolted sport lines to push their own limits.
However, we all have to be careful not to let our own ethic interfere with everyone else's enjoyment of the sport.
Say for example, you 'discover' a climbing area on public land and decide to bolt a few routes. Before you do it, ask yourself...do these routes need to be bolted? Can they be toproped (even if inconvenient...that's what we have long anchor materiels for)? Or even go boldly on trad?
Furthermore, are you the right person to do it? How has your climbing experience given you the right to alter the rock? Is it possible that a better climber could lead the route without the bolts you intend to place?
Most importantly by far: if you place bolts on this line, could it potentially create access issues at the climbing area?
If you think through these questions and still think you should place bolts in an area, think it over again. Bolts are a serious alteration to the rock and can have big consequences in the climbing community. Don't place bolts because it would make things easier on you. And if you place bolts, make them as low-impact as possible...paint to match the rock and don't leave tattered slings/quickdraws hanging from them.
As for chopping/retro-bolting....seems pretty obvious to me. If you are the first ascentionist, then you have the right to retrobolt/chop whatever you want on the route. If you are not, then stay off it!
I recognize that many hard lines could not be climbed safely without bolts. But I fear that many smaller bolted crags are suffering from excessive bolting and bolting by relatively inexperienced climbers. So I am a bit anti-bolt. Go ahead and flame me for it.
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ravens_wing_jim
May 8, 2002, 7:41 PM
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I agree that only a moron would
bolt a trad route.
But that only brings me back to a
point that I brought up before, I said
it once, I'll say it again...Trad=crack
Sport=face.
What part of that do some people not get?
I have seen sport routes that have been
chopped, because some self-perclaimed trad guru decided that he had to get rid of
those pesky bolts.(while on rappel of coarse, because after all, there was no place to place pro.)
Now why would he want to do this?
Is it because he cant climb face, and therefore no one should?
If it is a FACE climb I.E. no cracks for
gear placement, leave the bolts alone,
get over yourself, and go climb a crack.
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phreakdigital
May 8, 2002, 9:01 PM
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I think thought should be put into every alteration to the rock. Here is questions for the community...there is a rock near me that i want to bolt a two pitch. There is no place for gear at the bottom and the gear looks marginal at the top...and the rock there is a little chossy to begin with...i might climb it on trad but i wouldn't feel real good about it. Should i bolt it or should I put on rap stations and see how trad goes on the second pitch.
Maybe bolt the first one and then leave the second trad...i am climbing 12+ but i dont know for sure how hard it would be and wouldn't know until i did get on it.
what does everyone think?
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