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abkaiser
Oct 15, 2003, 3:38 AM
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Registered: Feb 21, 2002
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So, I've purchased the Rocker, and have had a chance to experiment with it on a toprope. Not having used a device like this before, I have a question about descending:
To get down, the Rocker instructions make it seem like I use a carabiner to just pull down on the non-loaded side of the carabiner to lower. And when the weight on the rope is only a few pounds, that does indeed work. But when my entire body weight (200 lbs) is on the rope, I find that the only way I can lower is to "bounce" my way down: Hop up, and when the Rocker is unweighted release the cam. Then I fall a few feet and the cam engages again. I then bounce like this till I reach bottom.
My questions:
1) Does this process sound correct for lowering?
2) I'm bouncing 200 lbs constantly on the rope as I lower. Because of the Rocker's cam, I'm not worried about stripping the sheath or anything, but can that much weight bouncing on a dynamic line be a problem after toproping on the same line, say 10-20 times? Or am I so far below the danger point on weighing the rope that my bouncing is not something I should worry about?
Thanks,
Andy Kaiser
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billcoe_
Oct 16, 2003, 3:47 AM
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Registered: Jun 30, 2002
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Dude: I checked the Rocker info on the Yates site. It does not appear to be designed for descent at all.
"I Sink Dat you are playing wif me" (spoken with the accent of the Nazi about to drill into Dustin Hoffmans teeth on marathon man.)
Check it out and e-mail Yates is my advice, and since the item is a new thing, check back in and let the rest of us spray-lords in on it too.
yatesgear@yatesgear.com
site says:
"*Dynamic grab and ascender. Duel action camming mechanism allows the rope to dynamically slip in device under loads of 3 - 4 kN without rops damage of any kind. Ideal for muddy and ice ropes. Rocker can be used as a belay device, wall hauling cam. ascender, short fixing and solo aid device."
PS, ascender means UP, not DOWN and whats a rops? Yates makes good stuff.
Bill
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abkaiser
Oct 16, 2003, 2:02 PM
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Yep, the instructions on the web page are pretty bad. But if you look carefully, you'll see the following line:
"In rope access and/or rescue, to off-load or
release lock, place karabiner in single hole
Check your working system is locked off and pull in direction of slack rope"
This is on page http://www.yatesgear.com/...ardware/rocker.htm#1.
(Also, when you buy the Rocker, it comes with directions that are a little more extensive.. but not by much.)
However, I have an update. I talked to John Yates, so this should be pretty accurate:
The device wasn't meant to lower easily, like a rappel or grigri lower. Instead, there are a couple methods you can use. I've since had time to try these other methods, and provide my reviews for those interested:
HOW TO LOWER USING A YATES ROCKER:
1) The easiest way is downclimbing. Use the "Lever Lock" to release downward friction on the rope (to do this, you rotate the lock so you cover up the small non-load-bearing hole). If you look at the Rocker picture in the link above, you see it with the Lever Lock positioned like I'm talking about. It's the grey ridged tab on the left side of the device. What this does is allow the Rocker to slide freely up and down the rope, if you move slowly. Specifically, this allows you to downclimb. If you fall while doing this, the device will engage after a few feet and catch you. (It *does* catch you - I tested this multiple times with a stopper knot below me just in case. It always caught after 2-4 feet of falling.)
2) If you can't downclimb, you can do the "bounce down" method that I write about earlier, but John didn't seem too keen on this idea. Instead, continue to #3:
3) Take the excess slack rope and wrap it around the anchored rope above the Rocker 3 times. We'll use this as sort of a Munter hitch to lower. But first, we have to unload our body weight from the Rocker. To do this, open the Lever Lock to expose the hole there. Clip a biner into the hole. Clip a 20-inch (or so, depending on your height) sling into the biner. Step into the sling while holding firmly on the free end of the rope we wrapped around. Put your weight on that foot, and the Rocker will "pop" free. From there, continue weighting that foot to keep the Rocker unloaded, and slowly allow rope to feed through our thrice-wrapped rope. You'll slowly slide down. Certainly bumpier than a rappel, but it does work. For me, I use my left foot to step with, and my right hand to control the slide, and my left hand to hold on to the anchored rope above the Rocker to keep my balance.
John said that #3 above seems to be a very good method of lowering, as the rope rubbing on rope creates the variable friction we need to lower slowly. And the fact that the rope is rubbing on new parts of the rope (since we're lowering) means that we don't have to worry about it melting.
Method #2 seemed easiest for me. But I don't know if generating that much force in the system is a good thing.
John endorsed methods 1 and 3. #1 is probably the safest and simplest, but can't be used in all situations.
The Rocker takes some getting used to, and I need to experiment more with the Lever Lock and method #3 (I can do it, but I'm not very graceful yet), but it does work great as a fixed-rope ascender (I'm using it as my primary safety device for solo toproping).
Please keep in mind that everything above is my opinion only, and that I've only been climbing for 1.5 years, and as of this post have used the Rocker a total of 5 hours! Play at your own risk. It's not my fault if you get hurt or killed using the above methods.
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treenail
Oct 17, 2003, 11:39 PM
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I've been using the Rocker for about 16 months. I climb trees for a living. The R is part of my SRT ascent system. It is a great tool!
There's a smoother way to unweight the R. Take the falling end of your rope and wrap it around the instep of your foot. hold the end of the rope along with the rope that goes into the R. Do this with your leg only slightly bent. Then straighten your leg. This will lift the weight off the R. Let it slide down as you sit. This will raise your lower foot. If you were to hold onto the rope and drop down you could wrench you hip so be careful.
Tom
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abkaiser
Oct 20, 2003, 3:27 PM
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Registered: Feb 21, 2002
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In reply to: There's a smoother way to unweight the R. Take the falling end of your rope and wrap it around the instep of your foot. hold the end of the rope along with the rope that goes into the R. Do this with your leg only slightly bent. Then straighten your leg. This will lift the weight off the R. Let it slide down as you sit. This will raise your lower foot. If you were to hold onto the rope and drop down you could wrench you hip so be careful. Tom
Tom,
Just to clarify (as I'm having trouble visualizing this), can you tell me how your method above would integrate into a toproping setup? I don't understand how weighing the rocker in the way you specify unweights the device. Here's what I'm doing:
- There's the rope that goes between the ground anchor and the toprope anchor above me. I never touch this rope. We'll call this part A.
- There's the rope that goes from the toprope anchor to the top of the Rocker. This is part B.
- There's the rope that comes out the bottom of the rocker and hangs free. This is part C.
From your instructions, it seems like you're telling me to weight part C, but this will not unweight the Rocker. Pressure needs to be put on the other side of the device where the lever lock is.
Can you elaborate, using the A B and C segements in your example?
Thanks,
ANdy
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abkaiser
Oct 31, 2003, 5:36 PM
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Registered: Feb 21, 2002
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A further update for those interested:
1) I've worked on using method #3 (detailed above) for lowering. Here is my addendum to what I wrote above:
Instead of wrapping the rope 3 times, I make only two passes around the rope. The advantage is that the decent is much smoother and easier. The potential disadvantage is that you can move down faster, and *very* fast if you happen to panic. But I find this method is now preferred, even though I have to have an extra carabiner and sling to step into. It would be nice if lowering were smoother, but seems the best way at this point.
Note that the 2 passes vs. 3 passes around the rope may also depend on rope size. I'm using hefty 10.5 and 11mm ropes, and a smaller rope (not sure if it's recommended for the Rocker or not) may slip easier, so 3 passes might be preferred (I have not had a chance to test this).
2) When using the above method to lower, I've found it works best to clip the carabiner into the Rocker in such a way the carabiner also encircles the rope going through the "bottom" of the rocker. Confusing, I know, but if you need clarification get a rocker and a carabiner and a rope and you'll quickly see what I mean: If you don't clip the carabiner around the rope, the carabiner will be pushed (by your body weight on the unloading hole) against your lever lock the entire time you descend, and scraping and perhaps weakening or bending of the lever lock will occur. This "clip around" method fixes this.
3) If you go here:
http://www.yatesgear.com/...ardware/rocker.htm#1
You'll see the industrial-strength version of the rocker (meant for heavier loads and rescue situations). Anyone have any experience on this? I'm curious because the Lever Lock and load release hole are positioned differently than the "basic" Rocker. I'm wondering if the new position of the load release hole gives you more leverage to unweight the rope. Specifically, can it be done by hand, or do you still have to apply almost your full body weight to unload the device?
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