|
raybo
Nov 7, 2003, 11:00 PM
Post #26 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2002
Posts: 25
|
[quote="wc"] If dog poo has to be packed out, why not human poo? I have yet to see a climber squatting and pooping in or on the edge of the trail, yet I find lots of dog poop on our local trails. If you can get your dog to bury his poop off the trail and behind some bushes, like most climbers do, then don't worry about packing it out. Also, what's up with the dog owners who go to the trouble of picking up after their dog, putting it in a plastic bag, and then leaving the bags alongside the trail or at the trailhead? Get that stuff outa here- you brought it, you take it home!
|
|
|
|
|
wc
Nov 7, 2003, 11:00 PM
Post #27 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 176
|
In reply to: I have never seen human poop literally at the base of a route, but I have seen dog poop right smack at the base of the wall, exactly where you need to stand to start the route or belay. Ever been to the base of El Cap?
|
|
|
|
|
renobdarb
Nov 7, 2003, 11:34 PM
Post #28 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 393
|
This has been well hashed out here, among other threads... try a search...
In reply to: I saw a sport climber smear dog do-do (he stepped in it) all over the starting foot holds on a classic boulder problem once. I say no dogs or sporties at cliffs period. maybe that was his point... it was probably a boulderer who had the dog... :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
renobdarb
Nov 7, 2003, 11:36 PM
Post #29 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 393
|
In reply to: I saw a sport climber smear dog do-do (he stepped in it) all over the starting foot holds on a classic boulder problem once. I say no dogs or sporties at cliffs period. maybe that was his point... perhaps it was a boulder who had the dog... :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
riceplate
Nov 8, 2003, 3:41 AM
Post #30 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 14, 2003
Posts: 92
|
who wants to revive a thread anyway. stoooopid. this is the only board I've ever seen do that. are there really people who care if there are multiple threads?
|
|
|
|
|
riceplate
Nov 8, 2003, 3:46 AM
Post #31 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 14, 2003
Posts: 92
|
In reply to: I think the dog issue should be addressed, but you've got to look at the big picture. Climbers cause WAY more destruction to an area than their dogs do! I have never seen a dog trail that is 4-5 feet wide and completely devoid of vegetation, have you? I have never seen a dog clear out all the vegetation at the base of a boulder forming a 20'x20' wide patch of bare earth, have you? If dog poo has to be packed out, why not human poo? The problem is over population... HUMAN over population. How does one get so short sighted as to try and limit dogs when humans out number dogs 10:1 at the crag... and cause (or have caused) at least as much damage, if not much much more? I think you are missing the point entirely. people climb. dogs do not. People DON'T need to bring them to the crag at all unless they want to use the smaller breeds as chock stones. chihuahuas work well, I'm told.
|
|
|
|
|
riceplate
Nov 8, 2003, 3:59 AM
Post #32 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 14, 2003
Posts: 92
|
more to the point. I was at the bishop meeting last night. the dog discussion went on for over an hour. we talked about dog shit for that long! If you had climbed at the happies years ago, pre dogs, you would have seen a change. Yes, much of it is from people, but I have witnessed dogs running around chasing animals, ripping bushes up, carrying them in their mouths, fighting, shitting, and generally tearing up the place. Few, and believe me this is generous, owners watch after their dogs to any extent. nobody wants to think that their dog is bad. but the point is: your dog probably IS fucking that canyon up. It is not a good place for dogs. It is a very narrow desert canyon. The locals will be meeting next month again regarding this issue. I encourage you to be there. My vote is that we have a voluntary ban of dogs at the happies and sads entirely. I don't see a need to further compromise those narrow canyons. Selfish people bring dogs. I personally witnessed hueco close due to similar climber apathy.
|
|
|
|
|
scubasnyder
Nov 8, 2003, 4:01 AM
Post #33 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2003
Posts: 1639
|
I love dogs and everything, but if ur climbing, there too much to handle, having to watch them and everything
|
|
|
|
|
ronamick
Nov 8, 2003, 5:25 AM
Post #34 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 28, 2002
Posts: 476
|
Dogs? The problem is dog OWNERS. More accurately, certain dog owners, who don't seem to realize that there times and places that are inappropriate for them to have their dogs with them. Why some dog owners who are otherwise intelligent, considerate and thoughtful people are so rude and intrusive with their dogs is something I have never figured out. Dog owners need to understand the impact their animals have on any area they take them. I had to quit climbing with some friends that we really liked, because they brought their dogs on every camping trip, and we got tired of them chasing the wildlife away, digging around the campsite, barking in the middle of the night, begging at the dinner table, covering our gear with hair and being a constant nuisance. I have fallen on dogs who were allowed to wander around the base of the boulders, had dogs knock my toddler old son down ("he's just being friendly" - yup, and booting your mutt in the ribs is just "my way of saying hi") while the owners sat there and watched, and worse. I have also known some incredibly smart and aware dogs that were a pleasure to have around. Unfortunately, all dog owners seem to think that this is the case with their dogs, but the well trained and unobtrusive mutts are by far the exception.
|
|
|
|
|
pico23
Nov 8, 2003, 6:12 AM
Post #35 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2003
Posts: 2378
|
In reply to: The problem is one of education and respect. Many uneducated people don't think dog poop is bad for the area...the its just fertilizer argument. Also, dog owners think of their pets as members of the family who should be allowed to go. The issue is that they don't see their dog as part of the problem. The solution is to pick up after dogs and to keep a close eye on them. I personally have a trained German Shepard who only gets to go if I am going with people who don't climb that are willing to keep an eye on her. If thats not possible, she stays at home. Its just common sense, a dog will cause trouble if left to wander around. Its a few owners not taking care of their dogs that is causing the problem, not all dog owners. It is only through education and respect that we can all get along. My sentiments exactly!!
|
|
|
|
|
mrme
Nov 8, 2003, 6:22 AM
Post #36 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 5, 2003
Posts: 449
|
there are a few times i would like to have choped a dogs head off... then i think poor dog .... has to have such a sh*t *ss master.
|
|
|
|
|
notyetabigwaller
Nov 8, 2003, 11:38 AM
Post #37 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2003
Posts: 27
|
dogs R cool where ever. "DOGS ARE PEOPLE TOO". People arnt always human though,
|
|
|
|
|
dc
Nov 8, 2003, 12:12 PM
Post #38 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2003
Posts: 355
|
sorry im just repeating other people here but... i agree entirely with riceplate and his comment to wc... - of course there are some climbers who destroy nature more than some dogs, but you (wc) also have to look at the big picture.. climbers climb and dogs dont... you can't expect people to stop climbing because some of them are destructive... it is feasable to prevent dogs from destroying climbing areas though... basically its what ronamick and climber_osu have said... it is the dog owners faults.. obviously not the dogs..
|
|
|
|
|
josephine
Nov 8, 2003, 12:23 PM
Post #39 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 8, 2002
Posts: 5794
|
Owners-the problem. Why? because a lot of stupid owners of dogs out there,bring their dogs to the crags,and they haven't taught to them the basic things. If the owner can't make his dog to obey to some basic things,then why bother and bring his dog there..If the dog is not docile to the owner don't bother to bring it. I am positive about crag dogs since i take my dog to the crag,but at least i am sure about him that he's docile. I know everything about him,when he wants to do his needs[same time every day],when he barks etc... I know his behavior. He doesn't bark only rarely when he wants me to notice something strange that happened,he's not aggresive[he's a Lab-retriever, he's not a guard dog] he's very friendly with ppl but he doesn't go next to them if they don't give attention to him...for example if they don't whistle to him,he doesn't give attention to them,so he's not annoying. Whenever i take him to the crag,i know he wants to be there,i find him a nice place to stay,next to my pack and stays there playing with his toys not chewing anyone elses things... And the best thing is that i rarely put him on leash... My point is that, it's not dogs the problem,if the owner has taught him how he wants him to behave at times then the dog he will behave like that. dogs adopt behaviors. But of course it's accordigly to what kind of dog you have,if you have an aggresive dog,guard dog[like pit bull,doberman etc] well this dog does not belong to the crags. it's simply why...these breeds learn how to guard,you cannot teach a guard dog to be a crag dog or a companion dog... oh well this is going quite long so... :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
mrme
Nov 8, 2003, 3:06 PM
Post #40 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 5, 2003
Posts: 449
|
exactly joshpine read most post that owners are exactly who i am talken about.... i have been bit by a dog before not at the crags but this makes me leary around any ones dog period.....though i have to say there are people out there when there dog does go teritoriol that don't do a thing ....some even say ah he is a nice dog usually....my favorite is one time the dog had its ears pinned in a grow bunch others peoples dogs there to they were growing and stuff to while the owners were laughing about it. on the other hand i have seen people who as soon as they can put there dog on a leash and apoligse props should be given to these dogs and owners though why should someone be so selfish in the first place to subject a dog to setting and doing nothing while you climb anyway....i thought dogs where for companionship you know hicking , swimming, playing fetch, and just playing with it ..... so if you are to busy to do these things with it why bring it? especially if they may ban climbing areas because of them. and on top of that when you leave a dog and come back to it after a day or two the damn thing is just so happy to see you anyway so wouldn't the look on its face be worth leaving it anyway?
|
|
|
|
|
michael crowder
Deleted
Nov 8, 2003, 3:15 PM
Post #41 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
josephine, good post. every dog i have ever had or will have does exactly what i tell it to do immediately. if your dog does not sit, lay down, stay, bark or shut up on command then leave it at home until it does. if your dog cries when leashed or does not respect that other folks may not like dogs then leave it at home. my dog only gets to go climbing about once a year. i just don't like to deal with the potential of someone elses dumb @ss dog screwing with mine. i have a couple of friends that bring their dogs climbing every trip. both of my partners that do this have great dogs. they lay by the packs chilling and spend the day watching us climb. they wander off in the woods when its time to crap and then come back to the packs. if a stranger gets too close to the packs he may get growled at but that is a good thing. after i had a pack stolen last year i like having dogs around. the biggest problem with my dogs and my friends dogs are when some idiot brings an unruly dog to the crag. i have seen our dogs attacked when all they were doing is laying quietly by the trail. the guy that posted bragging about his alpha dog's and their occasionally getting in scraps with other dogs needs to teach his dogs how to act or just put a bullet in their heads. if it attacks my dog that is what will happen. the last dog fight i encountered at the crags ended with the guilty dog having to be taken to the vet. it ended someones climbing day and cost them a big vet bill. i beat the d@mn dog senseless with a big stick.when they complained i told them they would take the beating next time. if the dog had been bigger i just would have busted a cap on it. if your dog has any tendency towards violence then leave it at home in a fence. if i see it fighting at the cliff a fight is what its going to get and i promise the dog is going to lose. at present the only dog i own is a lab but my chow that died a few years ago never started a fight. i had a doberman/rotweiler mix that i trained a few years ago and ended up giving it to some friends a few years ago when their dog died and they were feeling bad. he is used for babysitting kids and never has gotten into a fight. i have had multiple big dogs with evil reputations. they all have been perfectly behaved. i once got a doberman from a man who had been ordered to have the dog destroyed by the cops. it had killed 6 neighborhood dogs and animal control said that it had to go. every dog killed had come into its yard. he had never gone out hunting so i took that as a good sign. i went and picked the dog up and took it home. at the time i had three dogs. when i dropped the tailgate the new doby jumped on the first dog it saw. i grabbed a shovel and beat that dog senseless. i beat him so hard that he spent 3 days at the vet before he was well enough to come home. when i dropped the tailgate this time he hopped out, took a leak, then went and found the food bowl. he never attacked another dog. he ended up being one of the best dogs i ever had. no one had ever explained to the dog that fighting and killing was wrong. dogs are smart and have the ability to learn. when that dog got cancer i ended up spending over 3,000 bucks trying to save it. if your dog misbehaves then it means that you are a useless piece of white trash with no redeming moral values. you are basically useless to society as a whole if you are not smart enough to train a dog. how can someone that can't control dog ever expect to raise kids? if your dog misbehaves it is a reflection on how stupid its owner is not the dog. if you are not smart enough to teach a dog don't get one and if you do leave the beast at home. michael
|
|
|
|
|
renobdarb
Nov 8, 2003, 5:35 PM
Post #42 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 393
|
In reply to: who wants to revive a thread anyway. stoooopid. this is the only board I've ever seen do that. are there really people who care if there are multiple threads? yea, i guess you're right... so what's the difference between an onsite and a flash?
|
|
|
|
|
on_sight_man
Nov 8, 2003, 6:27 PM
Post #43 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2002
Posts: 628
|
Actually, I think it IS the dogs. Some dogs are annoying, aggressive, hyperactive trouble makers while others are sweet, mellow and non-territorial. The problem is the owners don't always know what kind of dog they have. They think "isn't that cute, Yippy is protecting me from that belayer"
|
|
|
|
|
ljthawk
Nov 8, 2003, 6:35 PM
Post #44 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 245
|
In reply to: Actually, I think it IS the dogs. Some dogs are annoying, aggressive, hyperactive trouble makers while others are sweet, mellow and non-territorial. The problem is the owners don't always know what kind of dog they have. They think "isn't that cute, Yippy is protecting me from that belayer" Sounds like kids L.J.
|
|
|
|
|
riceplate
Nov 8, 2003, 6:36 PM
Post #45 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 14, 2003
Posts: 92
|
In reply to: In reply to: who wants to revive a thread anyway. stoooopid. this is the only board I've ever seen do that. are there really people who care if there are multiple threads? yea, i guess you're right... so what's the difference between an onsite and a flash? OS = sending on the first try w/o beta, or any information that would suggest the correct sequence or jezery such as kneebars, toehooks, rests, etc. Flash = sending on the first try w/ some amount of beta or information about the climb, could even include pictures. back in the day it used to be called beta flashing.
|
|
|
|
|
rockfax
Nov 8, 2003, 6:40 PM
Post #46 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 26, 2001
Posts: 652
|
Don't forget the ULTIMATE ASCENT.....the Beta Sandbag Flash....where someone gives you bad beta but you still flash the route. Huerte Thicket and Tungsten boulders this afternoon Riceplate? Ivan, Pickles and Thaw are going. Mick
|
|
|
|
|
josephine
Nov 8, 2003, 8:27 PM
Post #47 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 8, 2002
Posts: 5794
|
In reply to: Actually, I think it IS the dogs. Some dogs are annoying, aggressive, hyperactive trouble makers while others are sweet, mellow and non-territorial. The problem is the owners don't always know what kind of dog they have. They think "isn't that cute, Yippy is protecting me from that belayer" Again ur saying the same,if i rephrase what u just wrote,u are saying that owners are stupid... if you don't know what kind of dog,and what ur dog will be then why bother adopting one? i really don't get it... :? U want an aggresive guard dog to guard ur house and ur property then let at home to protect ur property,this dog knows only to do that. This dog can't be friendly with others as a result this dog don't belong at the crag,like that all the other kinds of dogs...
|
|
|
|
|
michael crowder
Deleted
Nov 8, 2003, 11:22 PM
Post #48 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
folks, i have owned hundreds of dogs. back when i was training bird dogs i had as many as twenty at a time. i also have a tendancy to pick up strays and problem dogs quite often. i usually have them walking the chalk line in just a few weeks and find them good homes just as soon as they can fetch, sit, roll over and go get in their pens at command. i even teach them to treat women and children differently than men. i promise that there are less dumb dogs than people. i have yet to meet a dog that i couldn't train. almost any behavioral problem can be corrected with the proper approach even if it seems cruel in the short term the long term benefits make for a happier dog and owner. there is the rare exception to this and that is why we all have guns. the hardest breed to train in my experience has been dalmations but even they can be taught not to chew and freak out. michael
|
|
|
|
|
telemarkist
Nov 9, 2003, 1:27 AM
Post #49 of 64
(4589 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 29, 2003
Posts: 182
|
all right, here I go again, some of you have brought up dogs as a source of erosion, I don't see much of this as my dogs have been taught not to dig, owner responsibility, same old response. to any of you who went to the meeting, did they discuss range cows? next time your anywhere in the owens valley, look around you, cows do way more damage than humans and there pets. and we're all going off about dogs. I read somewhere that the range supported cattle in the western US accounted for 2% of the beef we consume in this country. ad to that our gov. lets ranchers graze for dirt cheap. they trash streambanks, trashing what could be great trout streams, ranchers pack too many animals into too few acres causing serious damage, they displace deer and elk. in idaho an enviro. group outbid a rancher for the rights to some land in the ohyhee canyon lands and guess what, they gave it to the rancher anyway, now here,s the bad part, the money from the lease goes to schools, no shit. ban dogs! hell no! get your priorities strait people.
|
|
|
|
|
riceplate
Nov 9, 2003, 1:56 AM
Post #50 of 64
(4563 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 14, 2003
Posts: 92
|
In reply to: all right, here I go again, some of you have brought up dogs as a source of erosion, I don't see much of this as my dogs have been taught not to dig, owner responsibility, same old response. to any of you who went to the meeting, did they discuss range cows? next time your anywhere in the owens valley, look around you, cows do way more damage than humans and there pets. and we're all going off about dogs. I read somewhere that the range supported cattle in the western US accounted for 2% of the beef we consume in this country. ad to that our gov. lets ranchers graze for dirt cheap. they trash streambanks, trashing what could be great trout streams, ranchers pack too many animals into too few acres causing serious damage, they displace deer and elk. in idaho an enviro. group outbid a rancher for the rights to some land in the ohyhee canyon lands and guess what, they gave it to the rancher anyway, now here,s the bad part, the money from the lease goes to schools, no s---. ban dogs! hell no! get your priorities strait people. our priorities are straight. There are no cows at the happy or sad boulders. ok, there is one cow skull at the sads, but it is long dead. We are considering banning dogs at a specific place where we have noticed impact. We have no way of controling owners, so some of us are suggesting a ban. You should come to the meeting in december or live with it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|