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redpointadventures
Aug 23, 2001, 5:15 PM
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Go to nancy_brown@nps.gov
The National Park Service is concidering bolted anchors to preserve the trees near the cliff face which have been damaged by heavy use.
I am in favor of limited bolting in the areas that are easy to approach and are often used by begginers and schools.I dont think the entire area should be bolted.
Contact Nancy to let her know what you think or to describe how this kind of bolting affected your climbing area.
Leave a message here if you are for or against bolted anchors in toprope areas.
If your going to bolt the anchors, why not sport bolt the whole place? Is there any middle ground in bolting?
[ This Message was edited by: redpointadventures on 2001-08-24 06:24 ]
[ This Message was edited by: trevor on 2001-08-31 12:54 ]
[ This Message was edited by: redpointadventures on 2001-09-07 08:46 ]
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conkdg
Mar 24, 2002, 1:53 AM
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Good reasons why Carderock should not have toprope anchors installed.
The link above points to some really good reasons why bolting should NOT be done at Carderock...
People originally thought the trees were dying because of people tying anchors to them, but it turns out this is not totally true. It is true that a poorly tied toprope anchor might possibly harm a tree.
BUT
The trees that died rather quickly in recent years did so because there was a deadly tree fungus that struck the area (call it a tree plague if you will). To my knowlege no tree at Carderock hass been killed by the use of toprope anchors, and there are some nice trees that get HEAVILY used for anchors.
Just my 2 cents.
Conkdg
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redpointadventures
Apr 10, 2002, 3:49 PM
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Changed my mind about bolting at Carderock and I'm now against it. While I think the Mica-schist will hold a glue in and sealed type bolt, I don't think the bolts will last long and will require careful inspection, maintenance, and even redrilling. I do think that heavy traffic has compacted the root soil and this will definitely hinder tree growth. The best solution to this problem is to protect and maintian the beds. Use a coiled tensionless anchor that doesn't harm the bark. Avoid sawing the tree with the anchor while adjusting the tension.
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madriver
Apr 10, 2002, 4:27 PM
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I don't coralate bolting for top rope anchors and bolting for sport routes? Why the stretch? Thats like saying if we cut down one tree we may as well cut down the rest? If bolting is infact safe for the rock and protection (I don't know I'm not a geologist), then why would this be a bad thing for such a heavily climbed area in a basically suburban enviroment? This isn't Yosemite or some pristine rock monument. Not to trivulize bolting or Carderock, but it makes sense to me to have solid TR protection for the masses. As for the existing trees, I don't think anyone is going to cut them down, leave them and use them if you want. I'll take the bolted pro anytime. The argument that the rock condition is questionable, what about all the existing bolted sport routes,anywhere, are they questionable? Do you do a geo study of bolted routes prior to ascent? The sanctity of "to bolt or not to bolt" is not really pertinent here. It's simply a matter of safety and protection of the existing enviroment. I'll be for this issue.
MD
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nwrestler03
Nov 10, 2003, 2:51 PM
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I am very much in support for bolting anchors at Carderock. I have climbed there for over a year and have noticed the lack of good trees for anchoring and the injury to the remaining trees. Sounds like a good idea.
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lowdown_dirtball
Nov 10, 2003, 8:51 PM
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People have climbed at Carderock since, what, the 1940s?
So somehow, after 60 years, bolts are necessary all of a sudden? I'm proud to have learned to climb in Maryland where there's an anti-bolting ethic.
I'm sorry, but having climbed at Carderock for a year does not qualify you to decide that bolts are necessary there.
Why in the world do we need "Solid TR protection for the masses?" How about "the masses" learn how to create a safe anchor on their own?
If the true concern is environmental concerns, then how about folks whose anchors are damaging trees get a big, fat, expensive ticket and community service? This will almost certainly teach people to build anchors that aren't harmful to flora.
If convenience bolts are permitted at Carderock, the next step will be: "We should bolt some climbs for people to lead." Then: "Those routes are crowded, we should bolt some more!" Before you know it, Carderock will be grid-bolted. Convenience bolts will start the slide down the sippery slope.
If someone can't figure out how to use a piece of static rope and some webbing to make a toprope anchor, then they should stay in the gym.
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furryfrisbee
Nov 10, 2003, 9:32 PM
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I agree with putting anchors in for TRing. Last time I was there was on a weekday, and in addition to my daughter and I, there were four organized groups climbing that day, plus a few regular climbing parties of two or three. All this on a weekday morning when the river was running high and many climbs to the south were inaccessible. The top was looking like a giant spider web laid on it's side, it was dangerous just walking around. Put in some anchors, make it safe for the people walking as well as the people climbing. Carderock will always be busy, and that close to DC there will be many beginners and beginner groups. If it can be made safer, make it safer. If it's deemed unsafe due to accidents, from climbing or from just walking around, it can be closed to climbers.
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robmcc
Nov 10, 2003, 9:48 PM
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Opposed unless top rope anchors are IMPOSSIBLE to rig otherwise, and by impossible, I mean nothing to anchor to within 100' or so of the edge. Bring static line.
I have climbed at Carderock and Great Falls, and NEVER found anchors hard to make. I haven't been to Carderock in 10 years, so I don't know what's happening to the trees, but at least one claim is being made here that the trees are suffering disease, not use. Certainly I went to Great Falls recently after hearing about the increase in use there and was a little surprised that trees I remember anchoring to 10 years ago, that I have NO doubt people anchor to all the time now, are basically unscathed.
I'd prefer an education campaign to instruct people on what to do to prevent damage to the tree over defacing the rock. And yes, some of us do find bolts fugly.
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jhump
Nov 10, 2003, 9:58 PM
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Ahhhhhh Carderrock. The worst crag I've ever called home. The rock is poor but the locals I met were worse. "That slippery chunk of schist is on- but that one is not." And every passerby will tell you how wrong you are doing it. If you really want to piss the locals off, don't bolt the crag, instead get out your trad rack and lead some of the easy cracks. They will gasp in disbelief and tell you that you are threatening their life. "I don't want you to land on me when all your gear pops out and you hit the ground." Never mind thousands of pounds of rock would have to explode from the cliff for the gear to rip out. Nevermind the trad meccas in the desert where you wish for rock as solid as C-rock. Cant place gear, cant place bolts, cant put your foot here or hand there, cant solo, cant use chalk, cant keep mouth shut if non-local uses incorrect beta. I even caught flack for top rope soloing. WTF????????
I think some well placed TR bolts would be a big improvement. Maybe some bold, sparse, leader placed bolts on the classic faces would be cool too. Like 1-2 bolts in 40 feet. And why would anyone ever bi**h about sinking a nut or cam on lead? There are other (more?) legitimate forms of climbing than TR.
I hear the slippery slope argument, and it is duly noted. This can be avoided by a tediuos application process like that at the Red River Gorge. Or the locals could just chop the squeeze jobs.
I am not accusing the entire C-Rock local crew of being backward and small minded, but my experiences there with the locals were unforgettably bad. My best times were when a big snow storm just hit and the hordes of poserlords stayed at home. I did what I wanted (with no impact to the crag), nobody ran their mouth, and it was fun.
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robmcc
Nov 10, 2003, 10:06 PM
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Sounds like somebody should just bolt the locals. :wink:
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jabtocrag
Nov 10, 2003, 10:07 PM
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In reply to: How about "the masses" learn how to create a safe anchor on their own?
I don't really know if it's necessary, but I can see how people may support it.
One big problem with this area is "the masses" that frequent it. We can do nothing to ensure that they create safe anchors with minimal damage to the surrounding area. This is a very crowded climbing area and many patrons are beginners with a little knowledge, or no knowledge at all. Which is worse? Who knows!!
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sticky_fingers
Nov 10, 2003, 10:40 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: How about "the masses" learn how to create a safe anchor on their own? I don't really know if it's necessary, but I can see how people may support it.
It's EXTREMELY important; either for themselves (so they don't fall and die) or for the trees (so they don't get rubbed, broken, etc). I've been climbing there for about 5 years and with any luck, some day my great-great grand children will too.
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ropeburn
Nov 10, 2003, 11:30 PM
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Bolts at carderock are unnecessary. Natural protection is plentiful.
Manpower and money are required to maintain and replace bolts. Given the areas high traffic it would seem that these proposed
bolts would have to be inspected and replaced somewhat regularly.
I think beginners may also place too much trust in these bolts without adequately inspecting them first.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
:mrgreen:
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madriver
Nov 11, 2003, 12:08 AM
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....this may be the oldest revived thread in RC.com history!!
....this is classic...
In reply to: "That slippery chunk of schist is on- but that one is not." And every passerby will tell you how wrong you are doing it. If
...my friend ...you have met Carderock Jeff!!...hahahahah
...IMHO....shuts or anchors would be welcome at carderock....the trees are definetley suffering...the traffic at Carderock warrants fixed pro for top rope anchors....as for maintence....I really don't see a problem, there are so many clubs and schools that use Carderock...replaceing and maintaining bolts for TR anchors would be welcome practice for them. Shoot away...it's just my opinion.
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stizrizzo
Nov 11, 2003, 12:17 AM
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Hello,
My very first experiences with climbing, and rigging TR anchors was at Carderock.
Reminiscing back, I recall an abundance of trees, by which an individual could rig any climb, with merely a 40' static extendo. Similarly, by wrapping the extendo 4-5 times around a tree, finishing with a bowline, no stress or friction was inflicted upon the tree. Anchors don't get much better.
In my humble opinion, bolts should be placed when there is not another option for protection or anchor. Convenience bolting at Carderock is unnecessary, and would reinforce an unfortunate, yet expanding degradation of local ethics.
Perhaps the would-be bolters could consider an educational campaign on safe, no-impact anchor techniques. (perhaps posted on the info board)
Cheers
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stizrizzo
Nov 11, 2003, 12:20 AM
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Holy Crap!
Didn't realize this topic came so far back from the dead!
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madriver
Nov 11, 2003, 12:35 AM
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...In reply to: Reminiscing back, I recall an abundance of trees, by which an individual could rig any climb, with merely a 40' static extendo. Similarly, by wrapping the extendo 4-5 times around a tree, finishing with a bowline, no stress or friction was inflicted upon the tree. Anchors don't get much better. In my humble opinion, bolts should be placed when there is not another option for protection or anchor. Convenience bolting at Carderock is unnecessary, and would reinforce an unfortunate, yet expanding degradation of local ethics. Perhaps the would-be bolters could consider an educational campaign on safe, no-impact anchor techniques. (perhaps posted on the info board) Cheers
...can't argue with anything you said....but....because there is soooo much traffic in the two years I have been going there I see quite a bit of tree damage. People like CarderRock Jeff are quick to point out a sloppy TR anchor and tell people when their anchors are doing damage. I guess from my point of view...a place like Carderock...is almost like a playground now. The wear and tear on the trees is inevitable. Education is positive ...but unless there is a vigilant everyday presence at the crag, I think sloppy anchors and tree damage will continue. If there were some fixed bolts or shuts at key areas, I think many people would appreciate it ...Hell Carderock Jeff may even go for it.... either way, I'm sure people will still abuse the existing trees and set TR anchors high on the trunks.
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climbingnurse
Nov 11, 2003, 12:41 AM
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While, we're piling the crap on...
Installing bolts at Carderoc is just plain stupid. You can rig it with the trees. Sometimes I stick in a nut or two... Which really freaks people out.
If you think bolts make things safer, head up north to philly and go to Livezy (sp?) rock. They've got bolts there and I've never once been there and not seen someone rig a horror-show anchor. Triangle of death, eliminated redundancy, parachute cord used to equalize two bolts. You name it, you can see it there. (Yes, I actually saw all of those things.)
Bolts allow complete morons to set up an anchor in no time with absolutely no knowledge of what they're doing. That's bad.
And for people who have not had the extreme privilege of climbing at Carderoc, some background: It is the most used climbing area in the country (people to rock surface)... Which is hilarious if you've ever seen it. It's a slabby pile of crap.
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binerbaby
Feb 23, 2004, 3:29 AM
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Ok. I am definitely a local, and have a couple of things to add. First, I am against bolts simply becasue they aren't necessary. If you bring an extra piece of carpet, you can put this on the friction side of the tree so that the rope can't "rope burn" the tree. Fortunately, at Carderock you have mostly deciduous trees, which generally have pretty good bark. I usually will save my extra carpet for the evergreens on the Great Falls side, who's faster growth rate usually means weaker bark. Second, why not ask the NPS to plant more trees at the top? Or plant at the work day? You could go 40, 50, 60 feet back. Third, to the guy who had the traumatic experience w/Jeff, here's the deal: if you only climb at Carderock, you start to play twister sooner or later, just to keep your sanity, so lighten up. This is just roped bouldering dude, and about as social as climbing gets. If you want a solo experience, you can go pretty much to any other rock any where else, including several within a one mile radius of Carderock.
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binerbaby
Feb 23, 2004, 3:42 AM
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And another thing, if people are ripping you apart at Carderock that generally should be taken as a compliment. It means they think you're pretty good.
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curt
Feb 23, 2004, 3:54 AM
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Well, when I first went to Carderock to climb 20 some years ago I didn't get any shit from the locals. Maybe that is because I was given the tour by John Stannard, who was a bit of a local himself. We led a few things and we TR-ed a few more and I can't recall any situation that would have benefitted from bolts.
Curt
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