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fitzontherocks


Dec 15, 2003, 2:36 PM
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Biner-to-Biner contact
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You can clip a carabiner to a bolt, but what about clipping a carabiner to another carabiner? Is this harmful? For instance, you clip one end of a quickdraw to your belay loop intending to clip direct to a bolt or anchor. But your 'draw is too short, so you link two quickdraws. Good/Bad/Indifferent? Anyone?


ricardol


Dec 15, 2003, 2:40 PM
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it depends ..

.. if you clip 2 carabiners together, they could become unclipped ..

.. so clipping 2 carabiners when you wont be there to make sure they dont become unclipped could be an issue ..

-- ricardo


alpnclmbr1


Dec 15, 2003, 2:42 PM
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Bad, due to the increased likelihood of them unclipping.


sspssp


Dec 15, 2003, 2:43 PM
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Supposedly this is bad. The "don't clip a biner to a biner" mantra started, I believe, because if you clip a biner to a piece and then clip another biner to it that you then clip the rope, there is a chanced the two biners could twist causing it to unclip yourself.

If you need to clip another biner in order to hang at a bolt (and you are belayed, clipped in below you) probably not a big deal. I wound't clip to an anchor this way, unless both biners were locking (or at least, the top biner is a locking in which case it should be as secure as clipping directly into the bolt).


fitzontherocks


Dec 15, 2003, 2:44 PM
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:?: Huh?

I think I see what you mean. And probably the only time I would do this would be in a situation like I described... From my harness to a bolt or anchor.


jakedatc


Dec 15, 2003, 2:47 PM
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I have had that situation.. i didn't have a daisy to attach myself to the top to clean the anchors and rap down so i linked a few draws together
But...
I clipped biner to the webbing part of the draw not the biner (this also keeps your rope end of the draw "rope only")

having a sling/daisy for that purpose is probably the best


mijenks


Dec 15, 2003, 3:36 PM
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Only time you would really ever might need to clip biner to biner is, like you said, at the anchors at the top of a route. The reasoning behind clipping the second biner into the webbing rather than your biner on a draw is that it reduces chances of failure. Anytime you can bypass a failure spot, it is safer. For example:


biner to webbing to biner to biner to webbing to biner to anchor

has an extra failure point than

biner to webbing to biner to webbing to biner to anchor

which has more failure points than

sling/daisy prusik'd(sp?) to your harness (not load loop, obviously...to most) and locking biner on sling/daisy clipped to anchors (I believe this is the safest way to clip anchors).


OK, that's all I got.


jliebgott


Dec 15, 2003, 4:30 PM
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yeah - I never do that on pro... bad habit. Then I'm flipping thru the new Huber book and there's Lynn Hill on the nose and has three beaners clipped together on one of her pieces of gear. like she didn't have enough quick draws or something.

anybody else w/ this book know what I'm talking about?

jason


iamthewallress


Dec 15, 2003, 4:36 PM
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In reply to:
yeah - I never do that on pro... bad habit. Then I'm flipping thru the new Huber book and there's Lynn Hill on the nose and has three beaners clipped together on one of her pieces of gear. like she didn't have enough quick draws or something.

I don't know the pic, but I see this done commonly w/ folks trying to get the most mileage out of the least rack. Although it's probably not usually as safe as a a nice runner w/ a biner on either end, I thought that the doubled up biner was the "quickdraw" of choice in times past?

And, fwiw, if I'm redundantly clipped into a bomber anchor, I'll routinely clip into biners instead of slings. A lot of times it's inconvenient to clip into the slings if the anchor is weighted. It might be safer than going into the biners, but I feel like the distinction is between a really safe anchor and a really, really safe anchor.


curt


Dec 15, 2003, 5:33 PM
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yeah - I never do that on pro... bad habit. Then I'm flipping thru the new Huber book and there's Lynn Hill on the nose and has three beaners clipped together on one of her pieces of gear. like she didn't have enough quick draws or something.

I don't know the pic, but I see this done commonly w/ folks trying to get the most mileage out of the least rack. Although it's probably not usually as safe as a a nice runner w/ a biner on either end, I thought that the doubled up biner was the "quickdraw" of choice in times past?

Yeah, we all used to do that all the time on bolted routes back in the day. And, although I would rather use a quickdraw, I'm not so sure that 2 biners on a bolt is all that unsafe. I know they can theoretically come unclipped, but I have never seen (or known anyone who has seen) this actually happen.

Much worse is what Lynn (supposedly) did in the photo described above. I have a "trick" that I usually do around a campfire--after several beers--where I hold a chain of 3 carabiners with one end carabiner in each hand, and the middle biner connected between these. If you twist the chain of biners just right, the middle biner will disconnect from both of the others and land in the dirt at your feet. Clearly on a route this could be inconvenient at least.

Curt


Partner holdplease2


Dec 15, 2003, 6:55 PM
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The best rationalle I ever heard from this is a guy explaining to another guy that the heat generated from metal to metal contact between the biners would eventually weaken the biners.

Those bolts on sport routes must be pretty darn weak by now!

;)

-Kate.


redpiton


Dec 15, 2003, 7:04 PM
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Sometimes there are situations where you may need to clip two biners together on a multi-pitch minimalist climb... however...

Do not clip two biners (especially sport draws) together and have them hold you weight or someone elses without having an additional anchor backing up the system!

try it yourself. I'm using DMM mambas... clip both draws together, then add torque to the draws (spin them. At about 75% of a rotation, the spine of one biner forces the other open. It's rather hard to put into words, but try it. I've seen TWO, count them TWO people deck from over 40 feet at Rumney this summer because of having two 'draws connected by two biners as an anchor. If you switch positions or twist, they will separate.

Be careful with the words of "wisdom" that you are giving... some people take these threads to heart.


mattdog


Dec 15, 2003, 8:10 PM
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The best rationalle I ever heard from this is a guy explaining to another guy that the heat generated from metal to metal contact between the biners would eventually weaken the biners.

Those bolts on sport routes must be pretty darn weak by now!

;)

-Kate.

Biners are heat treated for just that reason. ;) ...although bolts aren't.

Sometimes when I finish a route and set up rappel, it becomes difficult to get my harness close enough to the anchor bolts as to get two single quickdraws through my belay line, so I'll use a 2x2 set up. I'm doubled, but I'm also backed up on each side. I don't know what effect twisting would do, but I certainly don't think that's all that big a deal.

The big deal, bottom line is the increase in the points of failure. More biners = more points of failure... simple as that. Biners are heat treated, so heat shouldn't have any effect. Running top rope through them generates more heat than metal on metal contact.


Partner j_ung


Dec 16, 2003, 8:40 AM
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you clip one end of a quickdraw to your belay loop intending to clip direct to a bolt or anchor. But your 'draw is too short, so you link two quickdraws.

There are plenty of times when this would be bad. Many are described in this thread. In your example, as long as you don't spin cartwheels while hanging from the anchor, you'll be fine.

j_ung


capn_morgan


Dec 16, 2003, 9:05 AM
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some amusing advice....and even a little bit of BOLD declaration about how things should be done. As far as I know, from an engineering standpoint, there is no reason to not have metal on metal contact...any more so than to avoid nylon on metal at least. Some biners might become easily unclipped in certain situations....thats why everyone of us( or so im told ) was born with a brain. Now if you look at a lot of old climbing photos you will notice that it was comonplace to chain biners together..course they were also climbing on hemp rope. Just remember that there are vey few ultimatums in climbing. While chaining a few old school ovals together is probably just as safe as using a sling( they are hard enought to unclip on purpose), Its probably not the best idea with a modern, huge gated wiregate biner. So look at every situation individualy. haveing set rules isnt really going to make you a safer climber, you need to learn how to deal with the unexpected. Climbing gyms are a good place for set rules.


Partner j_ung


Dec 16, 2003, 11:41 AM
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look at every situation individualy. haveing set rules isnt really going to make you a safer climber, you need to learn how to deal with the unexpected.

Here here! Good point capn_morgan. I see way too many inflexible climbers posting in these forums. One poor guy got a new one ripped by several people, just for suggesting that under some circumstances it might be OK to open a loaded biner.

It's a good idea for all of us to remember that the number of variables in climbing is infinite. If one stubbornly adheres to every rule in every situation, then one is almost certainly gonna find one's ass in a sling one day.

j_ung


fitzontherocks


Dec 16, 2003, 12:08 PM
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Thanks, Cap'n Morgan. Rum drinks all around! You got at the heart of what I was after... is there some engineering reason why it's bad. And this is not something I make a habit of. In fact, I just leave a sling clove hitched to my harness with a beaner on the free end precisely for clipping into a bolt or anchor direct. I even leave it on when I take my harness off and bag it. I have a daisy chain, and I know it's rated well, but it just doesn't feel as secure to me as a sling.


fitzontherocks


Dec 16, 2003, 12:11 PM
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GIRTH hitched. Before anyone rips me a new one, I meant to say I leave the sling girth hitched to my harness.


punk


Dec 16, 2003, 12:20 PM
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In reply to:
You can clip a carabiner to a bolt, but what about clipping a carabiner to another carabiner? Is this harmful? For instance, you clip one end of a quickdraw to your belay loop intending to clip direct to a bolt or anchor. But your 'draw is too short, so you link two quickdraws. Good/Bad/Indifferent? Anyone?

Try and see...if u too scared donít do it and climb with draws :twisted:


capn_morgan


Dec 16, 2003, 1:13 PM
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Thanks, Cap'n Morgan. Rum drinks all around! You got at the heart of what I was after... is there some engineering reason why it's bad. And this is not something I make a habit of. In fact, I just leave a sling clove hitched to my harness with a beaner on the free end precisely for clipping into a bolt or anchor direct. I even leave it on when I take my harness off and bag it. I have a daisy chain, and I know it's rated well, but it just doesn't feel as secure to me as a sling.

Ill take mine with a few ice cubes :). You dont need to worry about wearing out your biners prematurly by clipping them to each other. That is pretty standard practice in aid climbing. I think many climbers do the same thing you do with a sling or daisy. I personly use a locker, or 2 opposed, to ensure that it wont come uncliped.


J_ung , I hope you werent insinuating that I agreed with the guy who thoght opening his belay biner while belaying was a good idea. I didnt really lump things like that into my no rules catergory...I kinda figured that one was under common sense stuff.


bustloose


Dec 16, 2003, 3:43 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
look at every situation individualy. haveing set rules isnt really going to make you a safer climber, you need to learn how to deal with the unexpected.

Here here! Good point capn_morgan. I see way too many inflexible climbers posting in these forums. One poor guy got a new one ripped by several people, just for suggesting that under some circumstances it might be OK to open a loaded biner.

It's a good idea for all of us to remember that the number of variables in climbing is infinite. If one stubbornly adheres to every rule in every situation, then one is almost certainly gonna find one's ass in a sling one day.

j_ung

we ripped him a new one, because the loaded biner he was unclipping was the one holding his gri gri on.. while he had a climber about to lower from a route.
think a little dude, obviously, if the situation demands it, you break some rules, but not under normal everyday la dee da circumstances, that is just asking to have your sorry ass erased from the game. and good riddance too.


jt512


Dec 16, 2003, 3:59 PM
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The best rationalle I ever heard from this is a guy explaining to another guy that the heat generated from metal to metal contact between the biners would eventually weaken the biners.

Fisix facts courtesy of rockclimbing.com!

-Jay


curt


Dec 16, 2003, 4:09 PM
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In reply to:
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The best rationalle I ever heard from this is a guy explaining to another guy that the heat generated from metal to metal contact between the biners would eventually weaken the biners.

Fisix facts courtesy of rockclimbing.com!

-Jay

Well Jay, you can't fool me. I've seen this happen with my own eyes--in the movie Cliffhanger. That poor girl in the opening scene fell to her death when her aluminum harness buckle contacted an aluminum carabiner and the resulting heat caused the buckle to bend and go right through that carabiner!!! Poor girl. If only she could have read this thread, she might still be alive today.

Curt


jt512


Dec 16, 2003, 4:12 PM
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You can clip a carabiner to a bolt, but what about clipping a carabiner to another carabiner? Is this harmful? For instance, you clip one end of a quickdraw to your belay loop intending to clip direct to a bolt or anchor. But your 'draw is too short, so you link two quickdraws. Good/Bad/Indifferent?

Bad, but I doubt there is an experienced sport climber on the planet who hasn't clipped two draws together, biner to biner, in exactly the situation you have described. In a completely static situation, where the biners are contnuously weighted, the bners cannot unclip. In a semi-static situation, however, you should be very careful. For instance, if you've clipped as described, and then unweight the draws to untie, keep a very close eye on how your movements affect the biners. I have had a biner unclip while untying, and I didn't notice it until I reweighted the anchor, after untying! Fortunately, I was independently clipped into a second bolt. Otherwise, I doubt I would be sitting here now typing this.

Finally, in a dynamic situation, such as clipping a bolt en route, do not clip two draws together biner to biner. If you need to extend a draw, clip the bottom biner of the higher draw directly to the webbing of the lower draw, so that final configuration is biner, webbing, biner, webbing, biner.

-Jay


powrslave


Dec 16, 2003, 5:23 PM
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What if the biners in question are locking biners?

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