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long lines and primitive systems... help?
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far_east_climber


Dec 21, 2003, 12:06 AM
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long lines and primitive systems... help?
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thinking about getting some longer webbing.. maybe 50-100ft long... At the moment i use a primitve set up and don't plan on using anything more advanced for a quite a bit... i was wondering if my primitive system wont get tight enough if i did it 100ft long for example... am i right? also... if i'm setting up a 50-100ft line (i know that's a big difference haha) could i still keep it relatively low of the ground (maybe 3-4ft) with my primitive system or would i have to set the anchor points up higher to compensate for increased slack?


jgardnerphoto


Dec 21, 2003, 7:39 AM
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As far as I know, well at least from my experience, with a easy and "primitive system" you will have to at least raise it quite a bit off the groud...I have a 70ft line and to keep it off the ground in the middle the anchor points need to be about 7-8 ft off the ground, and that is using a come-along to tighten the line. You may just want to look into building a simple pulley system to boost your mechanical advantage.


Partner slacklinejoe


Dec 21, 2003, 10:24 AM
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In reply to:
thinking about getting some longer webbing.. maybe 50-100ft long... At the moment i use a primitve set up and don't plan on using anything more advanced for a quite a bit... i was wondering if my primitive system wont get tight enough if i did it 100ft long for example... am i right? also... if i'm setting up a 50-100ft line (i know that's a big difference haha) could i still keep it relatively low of the ground (maybe 3-4ft) with my primitive system or would i have to set the anchor points up higher to compensate for increased slack?

A couple things worth mentioning:
Keep in mind, to keep off the ground you'll have to have that line really tight if your not wanting to set the anchor points up high. I can set a 50' line right at 5' but man it is tight. I don't think you could get a primitive near that tight without making another mechanical advantage setup in there.

Another thing worth mentioning is that just because the ends are set 6-8' off the ground doesn't mean you won't be spending most of your walking time in the 2' range. If your webbing is stretchy you'll have to compensate either by going higher on the ends or going tighter, which can stress out your webbing so you lose your bounce.

That said, our off the shelf deluxe kit handles 50' excellent and will get it pretty tight, but I just built a new slide assist lock (deluxe kit add-on) that locks the webbing in place while you get another bite with a ratchet allowing longer lines. I haven't tested the longest line the slide assist will handle but I'd guess it's over 100'. That lets you use one heavy duty ratchet to get really long or tight lines without it filling up the webbing spool.

I haven't started selling the slide assists yet since I haven't gotten my first big supply drop, but I could make you one and let you play around with it if you want to field test it. PM me if your interested in testing it out. If you already have the webbing other gear I can just send you want you need so it wouldn't be very expensive.

A pulley setup like Slackline Brother's or making your own out of a CMI pulley setup would work well too but it does come with a hefty price tag. But that type of setup might not be a bad thing because the step from 100' to highlining seems small in my mind.


far_east_climber


Dec 21, 2003, 6:09 PM
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hmm, thanks for the input guys, got another question... how can i make a more advanced tightening system (cheaply of course) so i can set up maybe a 50ft line?


batguano


Dec 21, 2003, 7:32 PM
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I would recomend some pulleys. They can be expensive, but dang they're handy. For a 50' line, you shouldn't have to go overboard though. I'd say get two pulleys with a 2" sheave, a gri-gri and an ascender. Hopefully, you may already have some of these items. If not, you will be able to use this stuff for slackin/highlining, bigwalling, and lots of other stuff. I use my gri-gri for for a wide variety of things.

Once you have the preceding items, rig them as follows. Adjust the length of your line by whatever means you prefer and fix the far end to your static anchor. Rig a hauling anchor for the near end. Clip a fat locker in the near end of the line.

Using a rope to tighten the system, start by tying a knot in one end and clip this knot in the biner on the end of the line. Now run the rope back to the hauling anchor, insert the first pulley and run the rope back to the end of the line and insert the second pulley. Then run the rope back to the hauling anchor and insert a gri-gri. Next, put an ascender with a carabiner on the loaded strand coming out of the gri-gri. take the free end of the gri-gri and clip it to the afforementioned carabiner on the afforementioned ascender. (using a smaller pulley on the ascender is a good idea on the longer lines, but shouldn't be necessary in the 50' range.) Pull the ascender to the gri-gri. The gri will capture the load while you reset the ascender. Once the desired tension is reached, tie the line straight to your anchor with a short piece of web. (this is called a soft point). Remove the ascender and open the gri, transferring the load straight to the anchor. Now you can remove the pulleys.

This will create more than enough tension for a 50' line. Maybe not quite enough for 100' though. But all you have to do when you want more horsepower is buy another pulley. It's like when you start buying a rack, if you drop some money on some key items to get started, you can add one piece at a time after that.

I use 5 pulleys, a gri-gri, a rigging plate and an ascender and I can rig a 150' line by myself in under an hour if I have something to stand on.

When it's time to take it down, clip the rope back into the end of the line, then using a biner on the anchor, block the rope with a munter mule. Untie the soft point, pop the mule and you're on your way. It's pretty easy to use when you get used to it, and a pulley rig is a step in the right direction if you want to rig highlines at some point.

sorry for being so long winded, I should try to find some pictures.
Have fun slackin.


Partner slacklinejoe


Dec 21, 2003, 8:44 PM
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Wow, thats some really good beta. Only thing, isn't that a bit overkill for a 50'?

I can get a 50' moderately tight using a single 2" 10,000 lb ratchet and insanely tight using a slid-assist - neither cost much at all. Maybe you should try and make something using a 2" setup, maybe one on each end? Our setups usually take a couple minutes for a 50;, maybe 5 minutes for a 75' using the slide assist since it's a bit slower.

Play around with it, I know several ways using my gear that work really well but maybe you'll come up with something new and even better.

But seriously though, if you envision yourself setting up highlines pulleys would be a really good way to go, just remember, redundancy and factor in plenty of safety margin.


david.yount
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Dec 22, 2003, 1:04 AM
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In reply to:
insert the second pulley. Then run the rope back to the hauling anchor and insert a gri-gri .
Not sure about this step.
Is the grigri carabinered to the anchor?
The 1st pulley does not move, but the 2nd pulley does move?
The grigri does not move?


In reply to:
Next, put an ascender with a carabiner on the loaded strand coming out of the gri-gri. take the free end of the gri-gri and clip it to the afforementioned carabiner on the afforementioned ascender.
More questions.
The grigri has 2 rope holes, the "climber" and the "hand"
"Dude, you're the 'climber' and I'm the 'hand.'"
The ascender is attached to the "climber" rope?


In reply to:
Pull the ascender to the gri-gri. The gri will capture the load while you reset the ascender.

Once the desired tension is reached, tie the line straight to your anchor with a short piece of web. (this is called a soft point). Remove the ascender and open the gri, transferring the load straight to the anchor. Now you can remove the pulleys.
So you use a piece of webbing to connect the big locker biner at the end of the slackline to the hauling anchor?
Exactly how? Single strand webbing clove-hitched at each end, or loop of webbing sized as close as can be with a water knot?


In reply to:
When it's time to take it down, clip the rope back into the end of the line, then using a biner on the anchor, block the rope with a munter mule. Untie the soft point, pop the mule and you're on your way.
How do you untie your soft point if the re-attached rope is not brought to greater tension than the soft point webbing?
Do you use a knot in the webbing that is "slipped" so you merely yank on a tail and a bight pulls through the knot, releasing it? (like the slipped overhand we all use to tie our tennis shoes)

Thanks!


batguano


Dec 22, 2003, 7:41 PM
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Inquiring minds want to know. In my last post I was a little vauge in some aspects, but words are a hard way for me to describe this stuff (I'm a very visual learner) and I didn't want to write an essay. In leu of a digital camera, I will try to use more words to clarify what I have said/attempted to say.

So Dave, I think if you experiment you will likely answer some of your own questions. But let me see if I can help. Let's try to start by identifying some terms. (note: these may be my own terms and not officially accepted by anyone) A slackline has two anchors. When rigged on the ground, this is usually two trees. One tree will be the "static" anchor, this is the end that is just clipped (aka "carabinered") to the tree. The other tree will be used as your "hauling" anchor. So, like, you will rig your hauling system on this anchor and stuff.

In reply to:
run the rope back to the hauling anchor and insert a gri-gri .

Not sure about this step.
Is the grigri carabinered to the anchor?
Yes, the gri is attached to the hauling anchor. You may use a carabiner, or a quick link, or a soft point, or whatever means of attachment you prefer.

Moving on. Dave said, "The ascender is attached to the "climber" side of the gri?"
You got it. The described scenario uses the gri as a "progress capture device" (PCD), which means the gri will "capture" the load. Since there is no climber actually in this system, I call this the "load" or "loaded" side. The brake hand side of the gri will be free of the load, hence I call this end the "free" end.
A further note on this part: Everything from the (beginning) end of your hauling rope to the gri is considered to be the main part of the hauling system. (this could be a 2:1, 3:1, 4:1, etc, depending on the #of pulleys and where the haul system starts) When you take the free end of the haul rope and re-direct from the loaded side of the PCD you effectively double the overall mechanical advantage. (ie 2:1 = 4:1, 3:1=6:1 and so on...) This is, of course, a theoretical advantage and is subject to depreciation due to friction within the system.

In reply to:
So you use a piece of webbing to connect the big locker biner at the end of the slackline to the hauling anchor?
Almost. I soft point straight through the end of the line. So when I remove the hauling system, there are no carabiners left in the system. Before I had rigging plates I would use a fat locker in the end of the line sort of as a rigging plate. I would clip the end of the haul rope into the locker. Then I would attach the biner on the pulley(s) into the fat locking biner. Such that when the soft point is complete and the gri is opened, the entire hauling system can be taken out by removing the one fat locker from the end of the line.
In reply to:
Exactly how? Single strand webbing clove-hitched at each end, or loop of webbing sized as close as can be with a water knot?
For ground lines, this is what I do. When I'm ready to soft point I take a 12'(or longer) piece of supertape and begin by tying one end to the hauling anchor. Next, I proceed as Eminem would suggest and I go 'round the outside, 'round the outside 'round the outside, so to speak. Looping back and forth between the end of the line and the hauling anchor. (sort of a multi-layered dounut effect) When there is only a few feet left, I block the end of the soft point with a munter mule.

In reply to:
How do you untie your soft point if the re-attached rope is not brought to greater tension than the soft point webbing?
I just pop the munter (on the soft point) and slowly introduce slack in the soft point untill the munter mule blocked haul rope is taking the weight. Careful not to go to fast, or you'll glaze your soft point material.

Ok, so continuing in reverse chronological order.
In reply to:
isn't that a bit overkill for a 50'?
Well,
In reply to:
This will create more than enough tension for a 50' line.
So yeah, if by "overkill" you mean capable of generating more than enough tension. If you're dead set on 50', maybe you only need 1 pulley, 1 gri and 1 ascender. Or, like, just don't pull so hard. Open a beer and revel in the power of mechanical advantage.

I'm on a Quoting role, so why stop now?
In reply to:
Maybe you should try and make something using a 2" setup, maybe one on each end?
Man, If that works for you, then that's awesome. But I'm not really into the ratchet straps. I work with them all day long, but I just don't slack on them. (the same way that I don't climb in my work boots) I enjoy (like, really enjoy) using my pulleys to create the tension.
tangent forthcoming:
The slackline is a discipline for me (like climbing) that helps me to define my beliefs and give me faith. It is an activity that I take fairly seriously. If you take a line and lay it out on the ground between two trees, it will rest lifelessly where it has been placed. Much like a waster on a couch. This is due to a lack of tension. Tension is the unseen force that pulls us through life. Tension from where we are, to where we want to be. This is the force that I have the opportunity to (re)create when I rig a line. It practically gives me a boner!

One of the beautiful things about slackin is that there are no rules. So experiment and do what works for you.


Partner slacklinejoe


Dec 22, 2003, 8:12 PM
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Batguano,

More power to ya man. I didn't mean to downplay how good of a setup a pulley system is, as a matter of fact I think it does indeed rock if you've got the gear and want to spend the time. And no, I didn't mean overkill as in creating excess capacity, but instead excess gear/expense when a simple approach will suffice.

I was only trying to give a little bit of guidance since far_east mentioned a cheap and simple setup. I took cheap and simple as an indicator of wanting to make something with easily available and economical items since all we are doing is creating x number of tension with webbing.

If I had any of that gear for wall hauling I'm sure I'd love it, but alas I'm a mere poor top roper that is at the very begining of the rock climbing experience that just happened to get into slacklining a lot.


dustin


Dec 27, 2003, 12:51 AM
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Whoa dude, It sounds like this bat dude knows what he is talking about. Taking the hardware out is the way to go. Slacklining is no joke. You have a system under extreme tension and if that system brakes any hardware in the system is volitile.
Does this slackline joe dude slackline with his ratchet system intacked(YIKES!).
Slackline joe says "If your webbing is stretchy you'll have to compensate either by going higher on the ends or going tighter, which can stress out your webbing so you lose your bounce."
Gaah!? OK, lets all agree that "your webbing is stretchy". Slacklining on your webbing will cause stress. Stress is good. The tighter you get your line the more stress you put on it. With more stress on your line the more you incress the bounce potential.I don't know what type of webbing Slackline Joe is using. I have never streched out a slackline to much where it lost its bounce.


Partner slacklinejoe


Dec 27, 2003, 9:18 AM
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Dustin,

I meant when the webbing is so tight you don't feel as much of a bounce. It becomes so stretched tight that it's more like a static rope or something instead of that big sway and bounce characteristics of dynamic webbing.

As for permanantly stretching the line out, you can sure do it, just leave your line up as a permanant line and it'll have no bounce left. Check the threads on leaving slacklines up or slacklines and water.

As for "extreme" tension, eh, thats debatable. Might look up my thread on using carabiners for climbing and slacklining. The measurements came back as a really tight line was putting out ~100 lbs of tension at rest on a super tight 25' and with a 160 lb guy jumping up and down on the line only made ~600lbs of tension. The tightening system we use is rated for 10,000 lbs of tension and is certainly not the weakest link in a slackline.


copperhead


Dec 27, 2003, 9:23 AM
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Oh man, it's in the slacklining forum. And I thought it was going to be a thread about modern society...


w6jxm


Dec 27, 2003, 10:34 AM
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Here is an example of what i use which "sounds" like it might be similar to BG line. What I use now is a little different, but I don't have a picture of it. I use a few less biners and and ascender in palce of the prusik.
http://personal.southern.edu/~davidcarter/slack.jpg


japhyr


Dec 27, 2003, 11:06 AM
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I have been slacklining on a primitive system, ~30 ft for several months, and I am also interested in longer lines. Is it possible to use a prusik instead of the grigri in the setup described above?


w6jxm


Dec 27, 2003, 12:36 PM
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Technically it might be possible but would be very hard to undo or unweight when you want ot take it down. But you could always try.


studmuffin


Dec 27, 2003, 12:38 PM
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If you want the ultimate system for setting up any slackline, especially longlines. Get 2 double pulleys, and 1 single. All haveing a 2inch diamater. And 2 jumars. I've used this simple 5-1 pulley system for setting up many highlines, longlines you name it. I can set up a 130 foot line, by myself, in under 20 minutes. (takes longer to put in tree friendly's than it does to tighten the line). And take it down evan faster. I can can tighten down long lines like you wouldn't believe too. I'm really not a fan of using a gri-gri with any high-tension set up and i have seen a few gri-gri handles broken due to it. Anyways, that's what i use, it is expensive, but worth it's weight in gold. It is absolutely no hassle and the safest way to rig a line, especially long lines cus there is much more tension. If you need more info on the setup PM me. Have fun slacklin!
Justin


dustin


Dec 27, 2003, 2:38 PM
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Joe,

I think your mesurements are a tad off. I don't have any official reports but if a really tight is only 100 lbs of force why would you need a tensioning system at all? I've broken a 'biner with a five pulley and gri gri set up. Granted the 'biners gate probably popped open. The rating on the open 'biner is still 7 kn which is around 1500 lbs of force.
As for the bounce debate the tighter you get your line the more bounce you get out of it. I do agree that you take sway out of the line when it is tighter. More sway less bounce, more bounce less sway.
Permanent lines and wet lines will stretch out but they don't lose their stretch. I set up a 60'+ line in my buddies back yard. After a week it had "stretched out". We tensioned it a second time and 8 months later it is still walkable. Thanks for the debate.
dustin
"slacklining is bitchin'" -chongo chuck


japhyr


Dec 27, 2003, 3:17 PM
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I was aware of the unloading issue, and I was planning to use a load releasing hitch. It's good practice for search and rescue work. I must say, I enjoy setting up the system almost as much as walking the line.


Partner holdplease2


Dec 27, 2003, 3:37 PM
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I thought this was going to be about aid lines that are "trade routes" for us new climbers...you know, long lines because people are slow climbers due to primitive systems.

How funny!

Enjoy your slackline!

-Kate.


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Dec 27, 2003, 3:46 PM
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Dustin,

Those numbers are measured by a quality assurance manager with REI, I didn't measure them myself. I asked someone at Omega to help me out on wether or not to recommend using the same biners for life saving gear after using them on slacklines. Those were the numbers they came back with on one afternoon of playing around. It wasn't an official statement or anything by any means since they did it just to be nice (official statement still pending if we ever get one), but they used the same load measurment systems they use for production testing.

Maybe something was lost in communication, but that's what they measured.

What they decided though was that in a scenario where the biner gets torqued, twisted or cross loaded failures were much more likely (say getting torqued as part of a tightening system). The end result is we don't use biners in the tightening system, but instead use a ratchet based system rated for 10,000lb tensil strength and still only sell it for non-highlines. So no, the tightening system isn't our worries more than knots and sewn loops in webbing, which we are vary careful about. It could always be modified a bit to be removed from the line after tightening but that'd add to the overall expense and complexity of the current system; since we got for simple to use and cheap that's not where we're going right now, but we do have different product ideas if we decide to go in that niche too.


dustin


Dec 27, 2003, 4:18 PM
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Dude,
First of all getting info from REI about slacklining is like getting info about nutritious food from McDonalds.The "quality assurance manager" that you talked to is a complete idiot. Come on dude a 100 lbs of force. You should know that is not true seeing that you need a ratchet system to tighten your lines.You said you talked to the dudes at omaga. As far as I know there is only one dude there and all his employees are prisoners. I do agree that you shouldn't use slackline 'biners in your climbing rack but I don't understand what they tested for you.


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