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fo_d
Mar 13, 2002, 1:15 AM
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I dont own a grigri but I'm thinking about getting one. one question, if a grigri does not lock up, will it still brake by pulling down on the brake side of the rope? so if the person using the grigri was trained to use an atc, they should still be able to stop a fall with a failed grigri?
Les
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jcclimber
Mar 13, 2002, 4:59 PM
Post #52 of 68
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I have seen many a person using a grigri without locking off the rope. Whenever I personally use one (which is not to often) I use it just like I would an ATC. I keep the rope locked off all of the time. Threading those stupid grigri's is as easy as tying a figure 8 on a bite. People need to pay attention, double or triple check things, and become properly informed on the proper use of any equipment before they use it.
Jake out
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old_school_guy
Mar 13, 2002, 5:15 PM
Post #53 of 68
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Man, am I getting tired of these conversations. Here's the deal. Gri-Gris are great tools, but they have no brains of their own. They should be used only by experienced belayers. I have a Gri-Gri, use it every week, and have no trouble. But I started belaying almost 30 years ago when such devices weren't even on the drawing board. I used early plate devices and even hip belays (yeeouch!) and other mountaineering techniques. This taught me to be respectful, to be vigilant and to learn the subtlety of rope work. When I recently got back into climbing, I started with an ATC and other tube devices. I grew to like them, but never to trust them entirely. Such devices are not belaying - the belayer is. IF somebody falls, regardless of the belay device, it is my fault. Then I bought a Gri-Gri and use it exclusively for single-pitch indoor stuff and sport climbing. I really like it. Because of all the complaints on this forum, I decided to try an experiment. I roped up my son on an indoor pitch. I purposly backthreaded my Gri-Gri. I had my friend, another experienced rock climber, spot my son. My son then went about 4 feet up the wall and "fell." No problem. Granted, the cam in the Gri-Gri didn't engage. But using my brake hand across the device, I was able to lock down almost immediately. That's the point. The cam in the Gri-Gri is supposed to lock, but it isn't a replacement for the brake hand, which actually controls the fall and the descent. Please don't blame a good device for bad users.
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rigel
Mar 13, 2002, 7:02 PM
Post #54 of 68
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one thing that most people don't think about is the 'fight or flight' response. that is why i almost always use my gri-gri. you never know, and never can know, how you'll react when a rock gets dislodged.
the guy who taught me was out for 6 months when he fell off a single pitch sport route. his belayer was using an ATC and when a rock broke and fell the belayer jumped out of the way and accidently let go of his brake. you can blame the guy all you want but the fact is when a rock comes falling at you instinct of self-preservation takes over...and you don't know if that might not be you next time.
use the gri-gri, it builds in redundancy to the system. how many pieces of pro do you put into an anchor? 2...3...5? if you use more than one, that doesn't mean you don't worry about 1 or 2 of the individual pieces. same with the gri-gri....REDUNDANCY in the system shouldn't relieve you of using good belay technique, but the redundancy might save your life...or your friends.
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jt512
Mar 13, 2002, 7:19 PM
Post #55 of 68
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Quote: fo_d: if a grigri does not lock up, will it still brake by pulling down on the brake side of the rope? so if the person using the grigri was trained to use an atc, they should still be able to stop a fall with a failed grigri?
Hmmm, maybe somebody should e-mail this question to Petzl.
It appears to me that were the cam not to lock at all that you wouldn't get much braking force from the grigri, because the only braking force would be from friction between the rope and the device. ATCs provide more force than this because they actually are active devices, in a sense.
When you bend the rope back over the side of an ATC, the rope forces the ATC down onto the biner, so that the rope is actually pinched between the ATC and the biner, providing a maximum braking force of ~500lb. Other than the cam, there is no comparable mechanism in the grigri, and I doubt that you could hold a hard lead fall if the cam didn't engage at all.
Quote:old_school_guy: I roped up my son on an indoor pitch. I purposly backthreaded my Gri-Gri. I had my friend, another experienced rock climber, spot my son. My son then went about 4 feet up the wall and "fell." No problem. Granted, the cam in the Gri-Gri didn't engage. But using my brake hand across the device, I was able to lock down almost immediately.
So, you were able to hold a soft toprope "fall" with a back-threaded grigri? This does not mean that you could hold a hard lead fall with one.
-Jay
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jt512
Mar 13, 2002, 7:30 PM
Post #56 of 68
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Quote:the guy who taught me was out for 6 months when he fell off a single pitch sport route. his belayer was using an ATC and when a rock broke and fell the belayer jumped out of the way and accidently let go of his brake. you can blame the guy all you want but the fact is when a rock comes falling at you instinct of self-preservation takes over...and you don't know if that might not be you next time.
You're damned right that you can blame the belayer. You must be able to maintain control of the belay no matter what happens. Rockfall is no excuse. I've dodged falling rocks while belaying many times. One reason your partner might fall is if he breaks a hold, in which case you may have to dodge the falling rock while simultaneously catching the fall. If you can't do this, then stay the hell away from me.
Quick quiz: What is the safest thing to yell if you pull off a large hold and fall while leading?
-Jay
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rigel
Mar 13, 2002, 8:06 PM
Post #57 of 68
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Jay,
i'm not sayin' i'd let the guy belay me either but here's a hypothetical, a large rock falls and knocks your belayer unconscious...or multiple rocks for that matter...unlikely? sure, but stranger things have happened...
if all you saw was a chance to point a finger then you missed the point of my post...bottom line, stack the cards in your favor, build redundancy into the system.
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jt512
Mar 13, 2002, 8:13 PM
Post #58 of 68
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Rigel, I did see your point. In fact, I completely agree with you. The whole point of the grigri is that if your belayer gets knocked out by a rock, you're probably still going to be on belay.
However, I wanted to take the opportunity to point out to others here, especially the beginners, that dodging a falling rock is no excuse for losing control of the belay. Beth Rodden, et al were getting shot at in Kyrgistan. Think they lost control of the belay?
-Jay
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old_school_guy
Mar 13, 2002, 9:14 PM
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Jay, when I tried my little Gri-Gri experiment with my son, I didn't plan on publishing my results as definitive. I just wanted to see what the heck the device would do when backthreaded. Believe me, I wouldn't want to catch a long whipper on a back-threaded gri-gri (too many guys I climb with are built like NE Patriot linebackers). But I think I could do it without bouncing somebody. By pulling the rope down and across the gri-gri, you are bending the rope and providing friction - just like when you use a tube device. Granted, it ain't nearly as much friction as my ATC, but hey. Life isn't fair. The trick with the gri-gri - like any climbing gadget - is to learn it correctly and check constantly. One neat trick: before letting my belay partner climb on belay, I give the outgoing rope a sharp yank. The gri-gri, if threaded correctly, should engage. Simple test.
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jt512
Mar 13, 2002, 11:09 PM
Post #60 of 68
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My point was that an ATC and a backthreaded grigri provide breaking force by fundamentally different mechanisms. ATCs are not static devices, they are active. ATCs are able to provide 500 lbf, not because of bends in the rope per se (as your post iplies), but because bending the rope over the device forces the device down so that the rope is pinched between the device and the biner, thus multiplying the friction. With a back-loaded grigri, you'll have much less friction, because the rope will not be pinched in this manner.
I agree with you about testing the grigri with a yank on the climber's side of the rope. This not only warns you of backthreading, but also warns you if your rope might be too thin or slick to lock the cam.
When I'm being belayed with a gri-gri, I always look to see that my end of the rope is coming out of the right end of the device, too.
-Jay
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carterslamfan
Mar 30, 2002, 11:13 PM
Post #61 of 68
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lots of people in this forum have said that the grigri should not be used by beginners, but what is safer for beginners?, and atc or a grigri. i would think that a grigri is if you make sure the rope is threaded properly and you double check it. what do you think? also, is it worth the extra cash?
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iclimbrocks
Mar 31, 2002, 12:16 AM
Post #62 of 68
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I think the Gri-Gri is cery safe, but it's all in the hands of the user. I have been using them for sport climbing for a little over a year now, and I have a hard time using the ol' ATC now. I feel safer on a gri-gri now. People say Gri-Gri users are lazy and not attentive to what is going on, I disagree. Lazy people and idiots are the ones who are giving the Gri-Gri a bad name.
I guess the best thing to do is to not let idiots belay you period. Doesn't matter what device you got, if the belayer is a doofus, then your going to have problems.
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jt512
Apr 1, 2002, 5:04 PM
Post #63 of 68
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The problem is not with the device. Gri-gris and ATCs are both safe when properly used. The problem is with training. New climbers are rarely properly trained to belay. It takes time to teach belaying and time to practice. For instance, the instinct to clamp down with a gri-gri when your partner falls has to be unlearned. Accidents with this device occur because beginners are permitted to belay without sufficient training and practice.
-Jay
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murf
Apr 1, 2002, 6:01 PM
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All this and more has been said many times. See
http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/safety_2.htm#grigri
And if you haven't read the grigri documentation or belayed with one, don't comment on it. Try a little research first:
http://petzl.devcross.com/pdf/D14.pdf
Note: requires Adobe.
Murf
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pattray
Apr 1, 2002, 6:41 PM
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I agree with Muff, I have used the gri gri for 4 yrs and find it very usefull in climbing, I've also seen one very bad fall because of two fools, one on either end of a rope who just happen to be using a gri gri.
Learn how to use your tools before you play with your life.
Murf and not Muff. Sorry
[ This Message was edited by: pattray on 2002-04-01 10:42 ]
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overlord
Apr 1, 2002, 8:01 PM
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My friend has cratered recently because some lamer begginer grippet the grigri with both hands when he saw him fall. He was just going for a clip and the lamer gave him slack while gripping GriGri. So, my point is that GriGris are not for begginers, because they are not aware enough and tend to forget about the climber, put the slack out too soon (resulting in much air time ), et cetera. I would only trust an experienced climber to belay me with one. And even then I doule check it, just to be sure. Climb safely.
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jt512
Apr 1, 2002, 8:25 PM
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Like I said, accidents with a gri-gri occur because beginners are permitted to belay without sufficient training and practice.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-04-01 12:26 ]
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hardcoredana
Apr 1, 2002, 11:42 PM
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I find that clear communication on rc.com is lost cause, but I do like the pic.
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