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miagi


Mar 16, 2002, 9:05 PM
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Havent seen anything about this post so here it goes. I was just thinking about my finger strength while working on my hangboard.

Finger strength is achieved by having your "tendons" endure exercise. Overtime your "tendons" will become stronger.

So i was thinking, is there a nutrient or vitamin specifically for tendons...and there is.
Its called Glucosamine
It heals, and maintains connective tissue and joint health (aka tendons)

Goto http://www.fred.net/ultrunr/glcosam.html
to read up about it. The first few paragraphs describe it well.

[ This Message was edited by: miagi on 2002-03-16 21:08 ]

[ This Message was edited by: miagi on 2002-03-17 08:01 ]

[ This Message was edited by: miagi on 2002-03-17 08:25 ]


kahuna3602


Mar 16, 2002, 10:51 PM
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We "old" athletes are real familiar with glucosamine and chondroitin, made from shark cartilage mostly I believe. It's also used by people with arthritis. It's used mostly to build cartilage and help replace fluid which is not produced in enough quantities in older people. From what I was led to believe is that younger people don't really need this since they produce enough naturally. I've always wondered if using it reduces the amount that is produced naturally making one, essentially, hooked on it for life. Plus you need a fair amount of it to be effective. About a SpiritDraw a month.


mountainrat


Mar 17, 2002, 3:19 AM
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What the hell is a "SpiritDraw?"


reno


Mar 17, 2002, 3:37 AM
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Stronger fingers are not a result of stronger tendons. Stronger fingers are a result of stronger muscle on the other end of the tendon. Tendons can not be strengthened. They can not regenerate in the manner that muscle regenerates. It is quite simply not physiologically possible.

I suggest you read a good textbook on muscle strength training.

Best,

JRB


spodski


Mar 17, 2002, 3:52 AM
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all i wanna say is if you are taking glucosmine and conrotin dont exoect miricule cures cos it takes 3-6 months for that stuff to work. and to strengthen tendons it takes about a year for your tendon to adapt to stress put on it by your body, and no finger srength has nothing to do about tendons, in the way that yes its gonna hold your your muscle to your tendon, of course it will but it wont make u stonger thats all down to the musclesbut your tendons do adapt and cope with the stress that you put on it if its not to much. ( iam abit pissed so if this does not make sense when you read it tell me and ill fix it up tommorrow
1


stigonrock


Mar 17, 2002, 4:56 AM
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TIME, HARD WORK AND PATIENCE IS A MUST!

I know too many climbers who have trashed their fingers in a major way.

Finger strength does NOT come overnight, as much as we all want it too!
Angela


miagi


Mar 17, 2002, 7:54 AM
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jesus spodski, your pissed off about this post? For the love of God the tendon thing information is from a book and online source. And since your so pissed im on a mission to find it since your putting all the blame on me


abkaiser


Mar 17, 2002, 8:16 AM
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Miagi - Um, no... he's not pissed off. He was just "pissed".

That's the non-american word for DRUNK.





[ This Message was edited by: abkaiser on 2002-03-17 08:17 ]


captaincrux


Mar 17, 2002, 8:20 AM
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i use glucosamine sulfate.. 1500 mg a day


miagi


Mar 17, 2002, 8:39 AM
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I wish I could have had the book that I could quote from but i returned it to the library and I dont know the name of it. That is where i based my information on so stop giving me slack on this Anyways, with muscle strength you need tendon strength. Without it your prone to injury. Stretching, "vitamens", and good workout routines help muscle and tendon work ability. Climbers in training who injure their tendons (there are SEVERAL differnt types) have to endure a long process to rebuilding, taping their fingers, and easier workouts.

Now i will go on a random tangent.
As for you spodski, quoted off of http://www.glucosamine.net
Glucosamine is a "supplement that may take a month or more to show any effect." Not 3-6.
Also stronger tendons do hold the muscle which means under strong tension, they are subject to injury. Stronger tendons = less prone to injury. And im sorry im American, jeesh. Didnt know that drunk was pissed.

Reno, tendons can get stronger.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/caff/forums/t.php?t=9794
http://www.trainingforclimbing.com/html/hit/workout.shtml
http://www.planetfear.com/climbing/training/neilgresham/ng_fingerstrength.htm
http://www.bodyresults.com/s2fingertendons.asp
http://www.camp4.com/morerocktech.php?newsid=236


"Glucosamine Sulfate, an aminomonosaccharide, is a naturally occuring substance in the body essential for the normal growth...of connective tissue, joints and articular cartilage."
http://www.glucosamine.net

Glucosamine is used for arthritus or tendon/connective tissue patients who have suffered injury, like kahuna3602 said. There are no side effects from what the site says (besides gas. woophee). It can be used to promote tendon growth which in turn can help to be a preventive cause of injury as told to me by various sites.

There are also three types of glucosamine so dont get confused of their purposes. hydrochloride, sulfate, and N–acetyl, with chondroitin precursors.

Also i quote myself "It heals, and maintains connective tissue and joint health (aka tendons)" Maintaining your tendon health while working out and making them stronger is what i ment to say.

I do account that i made a mistake. Finger strength is based on muscles but also on tendons as well. Im sorry i messed that up. I did edit my post to not confuse anyone else.
[ This Message was edited by: miagi on 2002-03-17 08:42 ]

[ This Message was edited by: miagi on 2002-03-17 08:46 ]


miagi


Mar 17, 2002, 9:00 AM
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also captaincrux is right. Only 1500 mg a day.


mitchal


Mar 17, 2002, 9:14 AM
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Hi Miagi,
Are you a doctor ar library rat?You seem to have info on whatever is asked.Or, are you just that darned smart?
Climb Happy
Mitch


mitchal


Mar 17, 2002, 9:18 AM
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Hey,
Does this stuff have a range of effectiveness varying with age?I'm 42 y/o,will it help me more than a younger climber,or will it help a younger climber better than me?Also is the dosage the same for me as it would be for someone with different characteristics(i.e.) weight,physical shape,etc...Or should I buy some and hope the directions explain?
Climb Happy
Mitch


radistrad


Mar 17, 2002, 9:28 AM
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My partner is into the herbal health supplements. I dont think they are doing him a bit of good.
In my oppinion a healthy and balanced diet and regular exercise will help build and keep the muscles and tendons strong.
A healthy diet of climbing really helps.



miagi


Mar 17, 2002, 10:58 AM
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Well Mitch, glucosamine's "primary" purpose is for arthritus. It can also be used to help with the treatment of torn cartiledge or tendons, and help to maintain the health of these parts. O yeah, my dad is a doctor, not me though Anyways for youngsters we have glucosamine already in our system. Glucosamine is a naturally occuring enzyme that helps keep your joints moving. For older people its recommended because over time the glucosamine depleats.

For you mitch 1500 mg is what is recommended. If you feel your joints are becoming stiff you should definitly consider it. Its effectiveness is over a period of 1 month or more so dont expect results immediately. You should probably see results better than a younger person because at your age you have less glucosamine than a younger person.

From the post people might think "hey im going to take glucosamine directly" Im only 18 so my naturally occuring glucosamine is already present but i still do take small doses of it. I take a 5 pill vitamen plan that has glucosamine as well as a hella lot of other vitamens in it.


miagi


Mar 17, 2002, 11:00 AM
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Radistad is also right. A healthy diet keeps your muscles and bones strong. Like i said i take a 5 pill vitamin plan that substitutes those minerals and vitamins that i need and dont usually get in the course of what i eat over the week.


bulldog


Mar 17, 2002, 1:43 PM
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Hmmmm.

I was wondering when I'd see something about chondroprotective agents on this board in respect to tendons.

I'll offer up my perspective. It happens to be that of a doctors perspective - although not of human variety, I like the furry critters. However, since the use of these agents originated in veterinary medicine (horse racing to be specific), we tend to have a good deal more experience with the agents than those in human medicine.

I've used them for years in patients with degenerative joint disease (ie, hip dysplasia). They help some patients, some they don't do diddly. However, they never hurt. I personally have a number of friends who swear they can't walk without taking them (mostly back injuries); while I also know a number of people who have taken them and feel like they are pissing their money away.

However, glucosamine sulfate and chondroitan hydrochloride / or the sulfate form are not universal miracle supplements. (nor are the various formulations you can find them in).

One sad fact is that these supplements are not regulated in the human forms by the FDA. What this means is that what you are taking may have very little to do with what it says on the label. Its probably a sad state of affairs when the supplement you are giving your dog is actually under closer regulation than the one you buy for yourself. There have been independent studies performed on many of the popular human brands, and most come up severely lacking.

The most recent clinical studies on these products in humans are still pretty inconclusive. Most clinicians think they have merit, but can't quite prove it yet. If you want to know the truth about these products, don't go to a manufacturers website (if you believe their drivel, then I've got a bridge in Florida I'll sell you); instead, do a medline search on the PubMed database.

Bulldog


miagi


Mar 17, 2002, 6:15 PM
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Thank You bulldog. You get a big 10 for backing up my statement somewhat rather than putting it under criticism.


miagi


Mar 17, 2002, 6:54 PM
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Also just for some reading on tendon strength on our very own RC.com look at http://www.rockclimbing.com/articles/index.php?ID=29
It tells the importance of tendon stretching, strength, and warming up.


jt512


Mar 17, 2002, 8:35 PM
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What Bulldog said.

There is no scientific evidence that glucosamine supplementation has any benefits tendon health in any way, nor is there any reason to think it would -- Bulldog, correct me if I'm wrong. Glucosamine promotes the growth of joint cartilage and is safe and effective in the short term. Long-term safety and effectiveness is unknown. See the abstract linked to below for more info.

Glucosamine sulfate review article

-Jay


spodski


Mar 17, 2002, 8:58 PM
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if u really wanna know about glucosime dont go to a site that sells it, cos they will only tell u wat u wanna here. find an independent study that someone did, them u will find out the truth about it.
and yes i was drunk :-) not pissed off with u.


bulldog


Mar 17, 2002, 9:24 PM
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"Bulldog, correct me if I'm wrong. Glucosamine promotes the growth of joint cartilage and is safe and effective in the short term. Long-term safety and effectiveness is unknown."

I have no corrections.

Glucosamine and chondroitin are just the little building blocks of cartilage.
The theory behind the supplementation is that you overwhelm the body with massive doses - much more than your body could ever hope to use. The hope is that your joints (and tendons) will be able to pick some of these babies out of the bloodstream and make good use of them.
In addition to their role as cartilage precursors, they have also been found to have some mild anti-inflammatory properties in joints. This is why they tend to be most effective in the treatment of arthitis and similar conditions.

The reason why their safety in the longterm is in question (at least in humans) is because they haven't been around that long. Additionally, there was little interest in investing research money into the products initally - it just didn't seem to warrant it. However, now that these supplements have become big business and new uses seem to be found for them all the time - the research interest and money is really pouring in.

[If anyone ever tells you some bullcrap about how they can cause bleeding problems (I've heard this one before), just tell them to bugoff and PM me. I'll give you the rundown on the physiology behind the deal and why this is a load of manure. I'd post it here, but it'd put everyone to sleep.]

Bulldog


miagi


Mar 18, 2002, 9:47 AM
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So in the end of this tug of war between me and those who agree with me, and those who disagree with me, we get this conculsion:
I am half right and half wrong as are the people who debate against me. We basically call a draw. The "theory" that glucosamine helps promote stronger tendons is not researched yet so i could be right or wrong. There are alot of variables we have to consider.


wu-tang
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Mar 18, 2002, 10:11 AM
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the stuff will cut recovery time in half for injured tendons though! provided you don't keep climbing and reinjuring the shinto, of course.


jcclimber


Mar 19, 2002, 2:07 PM
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Folks, wrist muscles and forearms get stronger, thus giving the tendons in your fingers more power. Tendons are tendons, they grow as your body does, but you cannot beef them up. Have you ever seen people flexing their finger muscles? I didn't think so! The strength of tendons relies on the muscles surrounding them, which means that your wrist and forearms and a few minor muscles in your hand need to be strong! Climbing builds these muscles and thus increases the load that the tendons can handle!

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