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rrrADAM
Mar 18, 2002, 6:07 PM
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This is in reference to the Article that can be viewed by clicking the link just above this page.
There are a lot of incorrect assumtions being made, therefore the logic is flawed. This is the falicy of "Hasty Generalization".
1. That Sport climbers climb better than Trad climbers. I climb sport at higher grades "simply" due to the ease of cliping a draw versus placing pro. I can TR at the same grade of sport and trad lines.
2. That younger climbers can climb at a higher degree of dificulty. Look at the mag covers... It's the older climbers who are making history, still. Granted, younger climbers, especially those in their teens, have greater flexibility and strength to body-weight ratio, thus they are naturally more gifted. But another reason that younger climbers improve so much quicker is that older climbers have careers, so climbing is secondary. Where as younger climbers, have a lot of time to work on improvement.
3. One test subject had an advantage the other did not. The 13 year old had the benifit of all the technique beta gleaned from this site, where as the father of the 13 year old did not. That advantage was not taken into account, in the very short time span involved in the test. Not to mention the physical activaty of the 13 year old while the 50 year old was at work, thus adding to his training.
rrrADAM
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2002-03-18 10:43 ]
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miagi
Mar 18, 2002, 6:24 PM
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Very good points Adam. This was a really nice post because you werent biased at all. All your points on the younger climbing to the older one were right on topic. Also the author is 13 years old as well as the subject. Could the subject be the author who is making biased comments to praise himself? hehe that part was just in fun cause i thought it was funny. I believe the test subject was someone else. But anyhow, I think for a 13 year old, this article was done well to his ability. Some facts were left out, but still i give him credit
[ This Message was edited by: miagi on 2002-03-18 10:25 ]
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wu-tang
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Mar 18, 2002, 6:27 PM
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well, i usually post stuff on this site trying to be an ass- but i've gotta agree with the above post. i mean, what the f---? everyone know's sport climbing is easier than trad climbing. why do you think there are so many sport climbers now and so few trad climbers? and bouldering... well, we all know where i was going with that.
unless the sport is long distance running or something- i'm fairly certain that a younger athlete will always outperform an older individual. human beings aren't meant to live much past 40's. we've managed to preserve human life long past our normal expected span, but i don't think our bodies have adapted to keep up yet.
why doesn't someone invest time in studying something less obvious- like what would enable someone to climb 5.14 off the couch with no training? there's gotta be some miracle drug out there.
[ This Message was edited by: wu-tang on 2002-03-18 10:30 ]
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miagi
Mar 18, 2002, 6:38 PM
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Hello wu - tang, you got your statements a little mixed up.
rrradam said that the article was wrong because "It's the older climbers who are making history", whereas the article said that young climbers are the best.
Wu-tang, you said "i've gotta agree with the above post" which would mean that you would have to say that older climbers are better, but you later said:
"unless the sport is long distance running or something- i'm fairly certain that a younger athlete will always outperform an older individual."
Did you actually read the article wu-tang? You sneaky lil man lol. Hehe im just joking with ya. But anyways you said why not write an article about a person getting off the couch and climbed a 5.14. I dont think thats possible lol....i might be wrong cause i never did research though.
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metoliusmunchkin
Mar 18, 2002, 9:10 PM
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I would first like to clarify by saying that Subject One was a 13-year-old friend of mine, and rather not myself.
I must plead to be excused from any fallacies or wrongdoings that I have committed in submitting my Science Fair Project to the site. It was something that I was proud of, and wished to share with you all.
Upon later revisions, I must also agree with the points made above.
I am all out of ideas, and have no idea what to do about this. What can I do ye Masters of HTML? Should I edit this article? This would take away from its original 'handed-into-school' form. I'm just a little confused as to what I may do to fix these errors.
Some guidance/assistance would be greatly appreciated (from anyone).
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rrrADAM
Mar 18, 2002, 9:39 PM
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Understood my friend, it just read very bias. The opening statement of "...older Trad climbers resent that younger sport climbers dominate the harder routes..." is inflamitory, and incorrect.
What grade did you get for your science project ???
~Adam
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madscientist
Mar 18, 2002, 9:56 PM
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For a 13 year old, this project was great. I enjoyed it, but it does not really prove anything. The main problem is statistics. With only one older subject, and one younger subject, your standard deviation is infinite. Thus you cannot rule out any random error.
On the other hand, it is a great start, and good for a 13 year olds science project. It was good to see the assesment of possible errors in the end (cold). It is important to figure out what might be affecting the results. I would have liked to see how improvement was measured. Also, did the two climbers have the same climbing ability when they started? The rate of ones improvement not only depends on the training, but also on thier current ability.
Keep up the good work, and I would love to see any other studies that you do.
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climb512
Mar 18, 2002, 10:06 PM
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I agree with Adam in his critique of the article. Still, it is well done for a 13 yr old. I liked the 5.15 is for mutants. We all know it was the pot that enabelled Sharma to pull that grade...
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miagi
Mar 18, 2002, 10:27 PM
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Html, i love it. I learned it and learned it well at Http:www.htmlgoodies.com
It is an EXCELLENT SITE. I suggest you go there and browse
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passthepitonspete
Mar 19, 2002, 12:55 AM
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WOW!
Pat is only thirteen, yet he can write better than many of the so-called adults on this website!
Do you guys have any realization what kind of talent Pat has? Do you guys remember what kind of stuff you produced at that age? Probably not anything close to that quality.
Hell, I couldn't do that well in freakin' first year university, as the smart ass comments in my physics labbook, [which were just too hilarious NOT to keep!] would indicate.
So we'll work a bit on Pat's Scientific Method, and we'll focus on understanding the difference between Observations and Conclusions.
We'll have a look at cause and effect, and maybe talk a bit about how observations merely are suggestive of certain hypotheses, rather than "proof". We'll talk a bit about sample size and control groups.
In asking for my help, Pat has made himself accountable to me, so heaven help him if he doesn't follow through!
So stay tuned for an edited and improved draught coming your way shortly.
Let's keep encouraging the Munch, eh?
Pat, keep up the GOOD WORK!
Cheers,
Dr. Piton, P. Eng.
[who]statistics so much in third year engineering, he took the course twice, if you "get" what I'm sayin' here.....]
P.S. You might be interested to know that Pat got a mark of 94% on this project, which was the second highest mark in his school.
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metoliusmunchkin
Mar 19, 2002, 1:36 AM
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Gosh Pete! Thanks for that...
I feel like Sally Field at the Oscars!
[ This Message was edited by: metoliusmunchkin on 2002-03-18 17:36 ]
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nikegirl
Mar 19, 2002, 2:50 AM
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YES!!!! This KID is very very very talented!
Good Job Pat!!
T
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gregarion
Mar 19, 2002, 4:33 AM
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I'm going to throw in with the last few replies here. If i had read this paper without knowing who was posted it i would never have guessed that you were 13. As it is right now i doubt i could turn out something as well written, and the imagination behind the original idea is a credit to you.
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maddie
Mar 19, 2002, 7:14 AM
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Yes that was a very well witten article, well done! GUYS YOU UNDERESTIMATE CHILDRENS ABILITY TOO MUCH! There are so many kids with a heap of talent out there you just dont hear about it.
NADZ
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darkside
Mar 19, 2002, 9:44 AM
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munch: nice article, glad to see you got a 94% for it. I have to agree on previous observations on control groups, numbers of test subjects, etc, but then again full studies often have money to convince more people to participate so all in all you did a great job well deserving of the mark.
I just wanted to throw one more thing in the pot; namely an observation of my own. On the matter of cold, it seems to me that many older ice climbers do better than younger ones. I believe this has less to do with age or temperature/climatic conditions and more to do with experience. No studies done here though
Thanks for submitting your project to RC.com Pat.
Oh wise one from the north
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gekolimit
Mar 19, 2002, 10:24 AM
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2.But another reason that younger climbers improve so much quicker is that older climbers have careers, so climbing is secondary. Where as younger climbers, have a lot of time to work on improvement
EVER CONSIDERED THE SH*T LOADS OF HOMEWORK WE HAVE TO DO?...and nagging parents who don't encourage us youngsters to scale the cliffs....and the fact we only have pocket money (not much) to bairly buy gear....
My opin. older climbers have more dough and time.
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rockrabbit
Mar 19, 2002, 2:09 PM
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Dude if you are looking for a good HTML site go to www.pageresource.com. They have everything from HTML to JavaScript and CSS. That is where I learnt how to write ad develop websites and there are plenty of other links that can help you on that site.
Rock on
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theamish
Mar 19, 2002, 4:48 PM
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"EVER CONSIDERED THE SH*T LOADS OF HOMEWORK WE HAVE TO DO?...and nagging parents who don't encourage us youngsters to scale the cliffs....and the fact we only have pocket money (not much) to bairly buy gear.... "
You may want to work a little harder on that "SH*T LOAD of homework. The word is barely, not bairly.
By the way, I'm just yanking your chain
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andy_lemon
Mar 19, 2002, 4:51 PM
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LMAO
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coach
Mar 19, 2002, 10:01 PM
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Pat,
As one of the older climbers around here I first want to tell you good work on the paper. Well written and as Pete mentioned, better than some of us old farts can do. Secondly, I agree with the comments concerning control groups and number of subjects but it is definitely the beginning of a possible longer and larger test you may want to tackle in the future. I do a lot of my climbing with younger climbers (teenagers) and have to agree that from what I see they definitely hit harder routes and move quicker and with more style than I do but one thing I have noticed is that they tend to not know how to pace themselves. They rip into several climbs and burn out quickly. On multi pitche routes they sometimes have to bail because they burn out so fast. I keep telling them that old age and treachary will always overcome youth and skill! Patience is a virtue on long routes and I notice that the younger climbers lack patience. Just an observation with no scientific testing to prove it one way or another. Keep up the good work!
Climb On
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metoliusmunchkin
Mar 19, 2002, 11:52 PM
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I agree with all of the points made.
I must interject for one brief moment, in my petty defense.
Yes, younger climbers do burn themselves out faster, I have witnessed this many a time in the gym. However, this has absolutely nothing to do with my project.
My original scientific method was to test many subjects, to render the conclusions/observations more relevant. This was impossible, for I could not find any climbers in their forties, especially in my region. The only climber that I know of, personally, who is in their forties was my dad. Thus, I could only have tested two subjects (one 13-year-old, and one 50-year-old - my dad turned fifty during the course of the experiment).
It was also an impossibility to control the variable of weather. This was due to the fact that the campus board my subjects were being tested on, was OUTSIDE. It is in the winter (a Sudbury winter, I might add), and it is cold outside, I cannot be Mother Nature and control the weather. I did however control the environment that my subjects were forced to be tested under, for I made sure that the physical condition of the campus board, as well as the car port (where my campus board was situated) stayed exactly the same.
A valuable 2 cents.
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krustyklimber
Mar 20, 2002, 12:44 AM
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Munchie,
Awesome job! I love it, I'm taking it as a personal challenge look out kids! I'm gonna tear it up at the crag! The kids are gonna say "man that old bald gut really cranks it out!"
Funny how only old guys have a problem with it, your report that is.
Right on, you just keep puttin' us dusty ol' codgers in our places!
You da Man... No, You da Boy!!
Jeff
P.S. If you need another 40yr old subject, I'm game, I could always use some trainig motivation.
Also, now I don't feel so bad my wall is outside, at least it's not usually freezing here!
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mtngypsy
Mar 28, 2002, 7:51 PM
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Patrick congratulations your writing skills are exceptional for someone 13 years old. I see you also have a good basic understanding of scientific method and I would venture to guess that you are quite passionate about both science and climbing. Maybe a career as a research engineer with a major climbing company is in your future.
I would just like to add to the comments already submitted. I lay squarely in the older half of your admittedly small control group. I trad climb 5.10 + on site and sport climb to low 5.11 on site when I am feeling strong. Pretty average per your stats. I was once a young climber now I am an old climber.
I think you only real scientific flaw here is your assumption that this is a climbing skills test when it is really a purely a strength test. Climbing is much more than upper body power, grant it when sport climbing the role of that upper body power is much more important. I have had the opportunity to climb with a few young teen age climbers that can on site steep sport climbs in the 5.12 range. I have found that when the climbs are slabby, run out with questionable gear these climbers generally preform at much lower levels and generally do not have the skills or mental stamina to climb solidly in the 5.10 range.
To climb hard trad is a combination of well developed physical, emotional, and problems solving strengths that takes time to develop and is not often seen in 13 year old climbers. Hard trad climbers are a rare breed in any demographic of climbers though not just the young.
This brings me to my main problem with your article and some of the responses that followed it. As you probably now understand there are a lot of forces trying separate climbing into little tribes of we are better than you are because we are ______ climbers. This form of bigotry is something climbing could do without. As you develop as a writer, scientist, climber and a person I hope you focus your very obvious talents with in slightly more positive and productive manor. Shifting to an experiment on strength alone would likely accomplish this. Our society and the climbing community could use more bright young minds like yours keep at it.
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