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fracture
Jan 29, 2004, 3:20 AM
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Not to stir up controversy, but.....ah, actually nm. ;)
So, one of the things in the RWW that I don't particularly like too much is the language modification programme. Arno says we shouldn't use the words `try', `success', and `failure', for example.
However, saying you are going to try to do something does not set you up for failure anymore than simply saying you are going to do it. People frequently do things sucessfully when they say they are "trying" to. One could argue, though, that it does recognize and embrace the possibility of failure, which could be viewed as more coherent with RWW concepts.... why ignore the possibility of a fall by talking as if success is guaranteed?
Alternatively, you may avoid the word "try" while attempting to convey a similar meaning. In this case you will invariably find yourself using idiomatic language to circumvent your self-imposed vocabulary limitation, or perhaps even using synonyms like "attempt". For example, you might hear yourself saying things like "I intend to send this boulder problem" (which is a phrasing quite similar to things you might find in the RWW book). The sounds coming out of your mouth are different, but the meaning is the same.
I would also note that rejecting this component of the RWW does not result in damage to other useful parts of the system. The effective parts of the system are still effective, regardless of whether the language modification programme makes sense, because nothing seems to be directly tied to it.
I'd say this is probably the single weakest/unnecessary part of the RWW. Does anyone care to try to defend it? :D
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lou_dale
Jan 29, 2004, 3:47 AM
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i used to have difficulty with my use of those same words and something somebody else said hit home - sometimes using the words we have learned in our past........failure, success, try......sometimes (at least this is my thinking) - because of all the years we've used these words, along with those words comes a specific mentality with them.
and if we can stop having those words come out of our mouth, even by using slightly different ones, we can shift an attitude that used to go along with those words..........does that make sense? somehow, i can remember my husband's daughter when she was small.........we would ask her to do something that we knew very well that she could do, nothing difficult and she'd sort of "hemhaw" around and just kind of ignore the issue at hand.........we'd ask her why she hadn't accomplished this specific task and we heard this........well, but I'm TRYING.......
now that i think back.....she really wasn't doing anything....she was using a word as a shield instead of making any effort at all. i think honestly that just by changing the words, we change the feel that goes along with them - and a shift occurs - not only in our attitudes but our performance as well.
when i started using different words - i began changing my approach. it could very well be mental......hey.....i'm mental.....i'll admit it but when i began using different words - even those that were similar - things really did begin to change.
words such as success or failure? i have been hit over the head with those most of my life so that took a real attitude change on my part. i realized that the only failure comes from within a human being - not caring, not just quitting - not caring about an outcome good....bad.....whatever. failure is doing nothing.....at least to me. failure used to mean i didn't get as far as dale (husband) or i didn't perform well one day or something......it's mostly attitude.
if i do not engage (not try) - or care about it - then i might consider the word failed - but it brings up negative feelings any way you use it.
i think it's good to get out of the negative and into the positive - and sometimes just changing the word may help. it helped me tremendously. when i began engaging to see what would happen instead of trying, i found myself making great progress - not just in climbing but in life as well.
i began engaging life instead of "trying" to get through the day......
this is how i looked at it - it makes a shift from the negative and brings light to it and brings a positive thought process change. words are powerful - downright deadly critters when used in odd ways - but can be just as uplifting when used in better ways.
thanks for asking the question - it reminded me of how i used to TRY, where i was - and how i engage now - and where i'm headed.
i believe this is - food for thought? super question.
lou
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iamthewallress
Jan 29, 2004, 3:52 AM
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I think it's more how you use the word than the word itself.
I was reading the giving section last night. It talks about how it's best to not assume an outcome in advance, and that if you assume that because a climb is such-and-such a grade that you should be able to climb it, then you will not be able to give yourself fully to the effort. I think that if you use "try" to mean 'being fully open to the experience, observent, giving, and committed, yet willing to learn from any outcome that does not involve climbing it in the initially desired style', then I think that "try" is in line with what is at the heart of the Warrior's Way.
I think that I use the word often as a way of excusing poor performance. (i.e. At least I tried.) However, more often I think that I beat myself up over poor performance and the "At least I tried" mentality is more in line with an attitude that values learning over performance, and it's one that helps me "try" again rather than sinking back into the level where I'm not only "trying" but am doing so only from well within my onsight zone or worse...I'm turning over the lead rather than "try".
In either case, though, I fully agree with Arno in that "try" is rather passive in terms of allowing you to be objective about what you've done or what you are going to do to make a climb as effective of an experience as possible.
Now the word "giving"...That's one that I'm definately trying to incorporate into my vocabulary in a new way and I really am trying to use that word before "try" when I think about the process and action of getting on a climb.
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iamthewallress
Jan 29, 2004, 3:55 AM
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Great post, Lou!
And I agree...Great question too. I've been wondering about it a bit too, because I haven't been very successful at erasing the evaluation language myself...Or when I am, I still feel egotistically wrapped up in all of that type of laguage that is standard for most of the people around me to use.
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lou_dale
Jan 29, 2004, 1:10 PM
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i agree - the use of the word is passive (i used negative but i really
like the passive text much better) and i really feel it's a good "excuse"
word.
again, thanks for posing the question - and for the additional response that clarified much better especially with a great example.
i think we did more than try - i believe we have succeeded in addressing the question, eh?
lou
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dirtineye
Jan 29, 2004, 4:55 PM
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Fracture, I have had similar converstions with Arno about this very thing, and to a point I agree with you.
But, try is not as good a choice for for a word for describing an undertaking to ourselves as we could make.
It's not so much that try is bad, although it can be used as a shield or not used that way, it's that we can be more proactive in our thoughts by using "language of success", for lack of a better phrase.
YOu are right, if try to you means "I will do my very best", then it is not so himdering, but wouldn't it maybe be more productive to get it in your head that you can succeed and that you are going to succeed?
IF this is so then there are better "thought modes" than "trying".
I expect that each person might have their own success mode enhancers ( man I am full of it today LOL), but in the end they will all have more positive connotations than the word try.
I don't think Arno wrote the RWW as a Bible that must be taken as the infallable word of a climbing god, rather he gave guidelines in language that worked for him for others to use in their own search.
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fracture
Jan 29, 2004, 11:57 PM
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In reply to: we would ask her to do something that we knew very well that she could do, nothing difficult and she'd sort of "hemhaw" around and just kind of ignore the issue at hand.........we'd ask her why she hadn't accomplished this specific task and we heard this........well, but I'm TRYING.......
But she wasn't trying. She was lying ;).
You're unfairly blaming the word. If she had said "But I am doing it", when she wasn't, would you advocate removal of the "to be" verb from the language? No---the word isn't to blame.
In reply to: I think it's more how you use the word than the word itself.
In which case language modification seems unnecessary---just modify your frame of mind instead.
In reply to: YOu are right, if try to you means "I will do my very best", then it is not so himdering, but wouldn't it maybe be more productive to get it in your head that you can succeed and that you are going to succeed?
Bzt. You used the naughty word 'succeed'. :P
Anyway, something more in line with the rest of WW seems, to me, to recognize both that you "can succeed", as you say, as well as that you very much could fall instead. Then make an evaluation about whether you are willing to take the risk, and then try your best with the expectation that success is possible.
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okinawatricam
Jan 30, 2004, 6:21 AM
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In reply to: Anyway, something more in line with the rest of WW seems, to me, to recognize both that you "can succeed", as you say, as well as that you very much could fall instead. Then make an evaluation about whether you are willing to take the risk, and then try your best with the expectation that success is possible
I would say that the WW idea is that falling is not neccessarely failing. I would say it falls under the learning aspect.
If you fall while doing a move, then you know that the move may need to be done anynother way.
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arnoilgner
Jan 31, 2004, 3:17 AM
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Yes, I get a lot of opposition to the word "try." Less so with "success" and the other words listed in the Subtle chapter. Here are my points about it.
1. What is most important is our intention behind the words we use. If you say try and to you that means you're going to give your best effort then your intention is more powerful. If you say try and to you that means you're going to have difficulty and not perform well, then your intention is less powerful.
2. The entire WW rests on and values learning. "Try" tends to be attached to a destination, like the top of a climb. If we value learning we don't have to try, we simply need to exert effort on the process of climbing. I say, to climb deliberately and powerfully we need to speak deliberately. Use words that closely parallel your actions. Also, usually, the only reason to say try is because we don't know whether or not we'll get to the top. It's tied to a destination, which is not aligned with learning. We can always exert our best effort, although sometimes our ego judges it as poor. Exerting effort onto the process of climbing doesn't require the word try. If we value the process of learning, which means engaging and giving our best effort, we don't need to say try and we don't need to label the outcome success or failure. Those are judgements based on whether or not we get to the top or how our ego feels about the performance.
3. Chp 2 is called Life is Subtle for a reason. All subtleties matter--how we breathe, how we hold our bodies, how we speak, the actions we take. Subtletles make the difference between redpointing and not redpointing. Ask any top climber and they will tell you that modifying subtle things made the difference in being able to redpoint something.
By the way, other authors that write on the warrior mindset, like Dan Millman, also don't like the word try.
Just remember that it all boils down to learning. If what we do is aligned with learning then we are using our attention impeccably. "Try," as well as success and all those other words, are simply distractions away from learning.
Perhaps this helps. Perhaps you agree or not. Just think about it. I have for at least 8 years.
arno
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