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iamthewallress
Jan 29, 2004, 8:24 PM
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In "How to Climb 5.12" one of concepts that was new to me at the time (having almost exclusively done climbs over my head "hang dog style" in the gym at that point) was that I could get a lot stronger and learn to put things together better if I spent most of my time climbing stuff that I could onsight and less time on projects.
Arno seems to recommend that we spend most of our time climbing outside of our comfort zone. I know that comfort zone is not a synonym for onsight level. Certainly there are a lot of things that would take 4th class out of my comfort zone. It seemed to me though that where Horst was saying that you should spend a good deal of your time training on stuff that you can cruise or only find modestly challenging, Arno find that these efforts are counter to the Warrior's desire to learn as much as possible.
I feel like for me there is value in a fun, comfortable day of climbing. In fact, I feel like part of the reason that I step outside of my comfort zone is to increase the amount of climbing that fits my definition of fun and comfortable. I also feel like it's the best way to increase my mileage which seem to be very useful to me at expanding my comfort zone.
What mix of climbing well below your limit, near your limit, at it, and over it do most of your pactice? (Also, what kind of climbing you're doing is probably helpful since boulderers will be probably pushing it more than alpinists.) Do you think that doing climbs well within your ability to "send" are still good learning experiences or do you think that they keep us from learning as much as we could be?
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unabonger
Jan 29, 2004, 9:20 PM
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I have a couple of comments on this.
First, I've read his newest Training for Climbing but not Climb 5.12. My impression of his new book is that Horst would have you stay a bit closer to your limit more than you suggest.
Next, there are many benefits from doing more moderate climbing that are widely discussed. For this forum, one advantage is that moderate climbing can induce the sort of 'detatched' focus and concentration important for performance, recognizing and inducing this state without the stress of limit climbing makes it easier to do when you need it.
UB
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dirtineye
Jan 29, 2004, 9:41 PM
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Climb the stuff that looks enticing. Some will be easier, some wil be harder, some will be out of range forthe time being.
that has been my approach, and the same goes for many of my best pals. IF you look in some guide books, you will see 5.6, 7 and 8 climbs done by guys that also climb 5.12. why did they bother you might ask? A good climb is good regardless of rating. AND any first ascent is good, just because of the adventure factor.
I can't say what the mix for me is, because it depends on what we see that day that looks good. We worry about the grade after we have climbed it-- or failed to climb it LOL!
One benefit of easier than your limit climbing, as Unabonger poits out, is that you can try different things, and you have a standard with which to judge your increases in efficiency. You can also concentrate on concentrating (LOL).
I do think that you must put complete focus on every climb, complacency and inattention is where danger lurks. The easy climbs are the most dangerous for me.
I trad, adventure climb ( first ascents), boulder and adventure boudler. I do far harder things in bouldering than on rope for the most part, but the hardest move I ever made was an onsight of a new variation out from under a roof on an establisehd climb on rope.
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jt512
Jan 29, 2004, 10:49 PM
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In reply to: In "How to Climb 5.12" one of concepts that was new to me at the time (having almost exclusively done climbs over my head "hang dog style" in the gym at that point) was that I could get a lot stronger and learn to put things together better if I spent most of my time climbing stuff that I could onsight and less time on projects.
Routes that you can onsight are not necessarily routes that you can cruise. It's been a while since I've read Horst's book, but my recollection, similar to UB's, is that Horst puts emphasis on climbing routes near your onsight limit, which may be quite challenging both physically and mentally. This, incidentally, seems to be the approach that most of the high-end (13+/14-) climbers I know take. I'd estimate that they work redpoints at most 25% of the time.
In reply to: Arno seems to recommend that we spend most of our time climbing outside of our comfort zone. I know that comfort zone is not a synonym for onsight level.
Whether your onsight limit and your comfort zone coincide is a function of how you respond to the chaos of climbing. In other words, why is your onsight limit your onsight limit? Is it your physical limit or your mental limit? I've onsighted two letter-grades harder since I've incorporated the warrior processes into my climbing. It's not so much that I've expanded my comfort zone by 2 letter grades, but rather I've learned to stay more focused while outside my comfort zone.
In reply to: It seemed to me though that where Horst was saying that you should spend a good deal of your time training on stuff that you can cruise or only find modestly challenging, Arno find that these efforts are counter to the Warrior's desire to learn as much as possible.
Horst's book is primarily about physical training, while Arno's is primarily about mental training. The ideal mix of difficulty levels for the two might be different.
In reply to: What mix of climbing well below your limit, near your limit, at it, and over it do most of your pactice? (Also, what kind of climbing you're doing is probably helpful since boulderers will be probably pushing it more than alpinists.)
From the Department of Do As I Say, Not As I Do:
Including warm-ups: 40% below, 20% at, and 40% above.
Excluding warm-ups: 10% below, 30% at, and 60% above.
...which explains my tendinitis and the disparity between my redpoint and my onsight levels.
In reply to: Do you think that doing climbs well within your ability to "send" are still good learning experiences or do you think that they keep us from learning as much as we could be?
I think they are still good learning experiences, both physically and mentally.
-Jay
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fracture
Jan 30, 2004, 12:10 AM
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I've read ho:rst's book, and definitely didn't really like his focus on onsighting. You don't learn as well onsighting as you do when working routes. He didn't provide any decent arguments for the emphasis on onsighting, and just recommended spending 2/3rds (IIRC) of your time on onsight attempts, with no justification. I did think his tips on onsight tactics were useful, however.
For me, hang dogging is definitely the way to becoming better in the mental, physical, and technical categories. After I warmup, I mostly go climb stuff at or above my redpoint level. I.e. anything from "I have a damn good chance of sending this next try" to "Maybe I'll manage to do the crux move this time" :). I feel like the routes closer to the latter are the ones I gain the most from.
Pretty much the only time I really get to try to onsight is when I'm on road trips. When I'm not, I've invariably seen people climb the route before I get on it, so I only get to try for a flash.
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lou_dale
May 12, 2004, 11:54 PM
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one of the things that dale and i do, for whatever value this may hold, is when we go to specific places and we find a route that is most definitely beyond anything we've ever attempted before - say if we do 5.10s well and have yet to jump on 5.11s, etc. - we deliberately pick a 5.12 - top rope it, and work on that for several hours.
it's kinda like bouldering on rope - i think........to me sometimes quality over quantity is helpful.
it's a safe way to work out moves, improve technique, get strong and improve. then we drop down to those we believe are in our general range - a 5.10 area - and lead those........fall or not......but at least by getting on a much more difficult route via top rope - we are working out moves safely.
our goals are always to go out, have a blast, and come home without being hurt EVER. and we frequently have days where - one route, many hours................work, work, and work some more (resting in between of course).
i've watched videos (i think i have a gazillion) enough to see - the best of the best get better by doing just that - and i think that was part of the idea behind the 5.12 training.
we have the book also (i think i have a gazillion) and that's how we approach it.
just my general thoughts.
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