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fracture


Feb 1, 2004, 7:35 PM
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Situational ethics for grabbing draws
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This leads into a subject that I'd been toying with broaching, namely, that while working a project you might do seemingly non-warrior things for efficiency that you wouldn't do while on a redpoint or on-sight run. The trick is not to let grabbing draws and "taking" while working a route enforce bad habits that spill over into your other climbing.
....
So the crux lies in recognizing the choices available. From the perspective of a hard route and my first time or two on it, I'm dogging up a route to wire it into submission, and there's usually no benefit to taking the plunge.

First comment is that the first time on the route is one of the most important times to force yourself to take the plunge, because otherwise no flash/onsight is possible. :)

If you haven't fallen yet on this particular run on the route, there's no excuse for grabbing a draw or taking. Once you've fallen, however, it becomes a bit more debatable.

A few possible views:

    [*:53835649f6]You need to link as much as possible (climb till you fall), but then you can cheat as necessary to get to your high point (or past it if you want to spend energy working a later section). But each time you start climbing, you don't stop till you fall or reach the anchors.
    [*:53835649f6]You should never grab gear or take, because it gives you that option in the back of your mind, and taking the plunge will reinforce your comfort with the risk. Additionally, one may decide they're going to "work" the route after the first fall, when if one had just kept climbing one would have one-fell it, potentially reducing the number of tries needed to redpoint.
    [*:53835649f6]You can grab gear as much as you want, as long as you are honest with yourself about what you are doing, and make your best estimation of chances for linking more of the route.


I am torn between the first and second options. I think in general I do not do well estimating what I can do (my best redpoint occured when I did a last run on my project "just to clean it"), and if I don't climb till I fall, I probably won't send as often or as quickly. Additionally, climbing till you fall forces you to take out of control falls. Out of control falls, by definition, cannot occur in a controlled situation (as for practice), and thus (odd as it seems) it is possible to be completely comfortable with whippers you take when you know they are coming, and yet scared to crap that you might fall without "meaning to" (I had this syndrome for a while, back in the day).


unabonger


Feb 2, 2004, 6:09 AM
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    [*:734d2770ae]You need to link as much as possible (climb till you fall), but then you can cheat as necessary to get to your high point (or past it if you want to spend energy working a later section). But each time you start climbing, you don't stop till you fall or reach the anchors.
I should clarify. I'm talking about a hard project: routes that are about 5 letter grades above my onsight. Onsighting is not an option. That's reality. Linking as high as possible isn't furthering my goal, because getting wildly pumped trying to link 5 bolts means I've wasted energy that could be used figuring out hard moves, plus I might onsight moves using less efficient techniques if I get too pumped. And that kind of overload pump is difficult to recover from.
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[*:734d2770ae]You should never grab gear or take, because it gives you that option in the back of your mind, and taking the plunge will reinforce your comfort with the risk. Additionally, one may decide they're going to "work" the route after the first fall, when if one had just kept climbing one would have one-fell it, potentially reducing the number of tries needed to redpoint.
Taking IS an option. Its neither given nor taken away. I choose to do it, or not. My comfort level with risk of falling is not at issue here. If it is then other excersices to overcome it are in order. I don't really know what your second sentence means. Clarify, please.

See, one of my tactics may be to minimize the "overload" pump that is detrimental to efficient dogging. Another tactic is that sometimes grabbing the draw is too much of a pain in the ass to bother with, its easier to take a short fall.

Mainly I use this tactic for hard projects is to get the draws on the route efficiently. Hanging on to clip the draw, then clip the rope may help create that overload pump. If you're on a ten bolt route with 50 hand moves, you add 20% more moves by clipping the rope. If it's from bad holds, hello pump. Grab the draw, pop the rope in, often its very efficient. For future burns the draw is there so you aren't on the bad holds so long.

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[*:734d2770ae]You can grab gear as much as you want, as long as you are honest with yourself about what you are doing, and make your best estimation of chances for linking more of the route.


Yes.
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I am torn between the first and second options. I think in general I do not do well estimating what I can do (my best redpoint occured when I did a last run on my project "just to clean it"), and if I don't climb till I fall, I probably won't send as often or as quickly.

A key difference between us, and it's important: I have a precise idea of what my current limits are, what my level of fitness is. At a new area, this estimation of my limits becomes less precise and I adjust my tactics accordingly. One of my goals is to expand my comfort zone on unknown rock types and areas.

There are many considerations that determine my tactics. Physically, if I know my endurance is a bit soft, then I might take so that I don't reach a "critical mass" of pump. This means I might be able to do more climbs and attempts that day, and the next. I do mostly weekend trips, so I'm looking to get two strong days.

Goals and values determine your strategy. "Situational" ethics insinuates that one changes ethics for a particular situation. Ethics are determined by values. If your values are consistant, so will be your ethics, and what seems like an inconsistancy will often be resolved by deeper investigation.

UB

edited slightly for clarity.


jt512


Feb 2, 2004, 10:22 AM
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This leads into a subject that I'd been toying with broaching, namely, that while working a project you might do seemingly non-warrior things for efficiency that you wouldn't do while on a redpoint or on-sight run. The trick is not to let grabbing draws and "taking" while working a route enforce bad habits that spill over into your other climbing.

First comment is that the first time on the route is one of the most important times to force yourself to take the plunge, because otherwise no flash/onsight is possible. :)

As UB said, I think we're talking about projects -- routes that are way above our best onsights. On my current project, for instance, it took me three days to figure out what I wanted to do at the crux, which is not to say that once I figured out what I wanted to do, that I could do it. Onsighting was not even a remote possibility.

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If you haven't fallen yet on this particular run on the route, there's no excuse for grabbing a draw or taking. Once you've fallen, however, it becomes a bit more debatable.

I think we should avoid using judgmental language. Grabbing draws vs. falling is not an "ethical" issue. It's not "cheating" to grab a draw or pull up on the rope to your high point after a fall, and let's talk about reasons for grabbing draws, not "excuses."

"Taking," grabbing draws, etc. are tactics that save energy while working a project, but if we do those things on a redpoint or onsight run, we may not be giving our best effort. When I first started to consciously work on my mental game, I avoided working hard projects because I was afraid that my project tactics would reinforce mental habits that I wanted to eliminate from my "performance" climbing (for lack of a better term). After a while, I started projecting again, thinking that I had improved my mental game to the point where I could avoid letting my project tactics spill over into my performance climbing.

But after my performance yesterday, I'm beginning to wonder. My partner and I picked a route that we plan to use for training power-endurance. The route is rated 12d, but we were told (and it was even true!) that there is no move on it harder than 11c, and so, conceivably, I might have been able to onsight it, and my intention was to climb it as a performance climb, not a work run. Nevertheless, I found myself getting scared and taking, when I could have made more moves, and I'm wondering how much that performance was affected by all the taking I'd been doing recently while working my project.

I'm also wondering what the solution is for me. I think I'm going to have to practice some of the falls on the 12d. Yipes, those are going to be some whippers. I'm going to have to work up to them. I've never taken a 40-footer intentionally! Come to think of it, I've never taken a 40-foot fall at all.

-Jay


fracture


Feb 2, 2004, 7:26 PM
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This leads into a subject that I'd been toying with broaching, namely, that while working a project you might do seemingly non-warrior things for efficiency that you wouldn't do while on a redpoint or on-sight run. The trick is not to let grabbing draws and "taking" while working a route enforce bad habits that spill over into your other climbing.

First comment is that the first time on the route is one of the most important times to force yourself to take the plunge, because otherwise no flash/onsight is possible. :)

As UB said, I think we're talking about projects -- routes that are way above our best onsights. On my current project, for instance, it took me three days to figure out what I wanted to do at the crux, which is not to say that once I figured out what I wanted to do, that I could do it. Onsighting was not even a remote possibility.

Sure, you can expect it to be very hard, and it probably will be. But why yell `take' instead of continuing to climb till you fall (even if the fall is off the starting holds :))? You only get one first try, and if the route really is going to be that hard for you, you don't need to save energy for a send on that particular day. Maybe you'll be able to link everything to the crux, and then after dogging the crux, link everything after it---that's not an onsight, but it can give you confidence for future attempts.

For me, at least, things are invariably easier than I expect. If I let myself get into predicting whether I can do something and deciding not to try it (i.e. taking instead of climbing on) based on that, I'm certain I'll send less, and when it comes to the first try, it's a clear fact that I'll link less on the first go.

My view is to wait to decide that it's a project until you fall at least once.

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If you haven't fallen yet on this particular run on the route, there's no excuse for grabbing a draw or taking. Once you've fallen, however, it becomes a bit more debatable.

I think we should avoid using judgmental language. Grabbing draws vs. falling is not an "ethical" issue. It's not "cheating" to grab a draw or pull up on the rope to your high point after a fall, and let's talk about reasons for grabbing draws, not "excuses."

Right; that was somewhat loaded language.

I don't see a reason to take or aid before your first fall (excluding the case where you just are aiding to get to a move you want to work on---you've fallen off the route already (or have linked the segments on either side of the crux boulder problem) and are in full working mode).

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I'm also wondering what the solution is for me. I think I'm going to have to practice some of the falls on the 12d. Yipes, those are going to be some whippers. I'm going to have to work up to them. I've never taken a 40-footer intentionally! Come to think of it, I've never taken a 40-foot fall at all.

Nice. I don't think I've fallen more than 20 ft, myself.

Are the 40-footers because you want to skip draws for energy? Or is the route bolted that way?


fracture


Feb 2, 2004, 7:46 PM
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[A few possible views:

  • You need to link as much as possible (climb till you fall), but then you can cheat as necessary to get to your high point (or past it if you want to spend energy working a later section). But each time you start climbing, you don't stop till you fall or reach the anchors.
I should clarify. I'm talking about a hard project: routes that are about 5 letter grades above my onsight. Onsighting is not an option. That's reality. Linking as high as possible isn't furthering my goal, because getting wildly pumped trying to link 5 bolts means I've wasted energy that could be used figuring out hard moves, plus I might onsight moves using less efficient techniques if I get too pumped. And that kind of overload pump is difficult to recover from.

I disagree---I think getting wildly pumped trying to link up to 5 bolts on the first try is useful, because it lets you know that those 5 bolts were "easy" enough for you to get there on attempt #1.

Why are you worried about wasting energy? If the route truly is that hard for you, you aren't going to send it today. Are you trying to minimize the number of days working the route? I would argue that linking as much as possible on the first run could help to that end, by making it clear where to focus your time working (anything you linked on the first try doesn't really need any more practice :)).

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In reply to:
  • You should never grab gear or take, because it gives you that option in the back of your mind, and taking the plunge will reinforce your comfort with the risk. Additionally, one may decide they're going to "work" the route after the first fall, when if one had just kept climbing one would have one-fell it, potentially reducing the number of tries needed to redpoint.
  • Taking IS an option. Its neither given nor taken away. I choose to do it, or not. My comfort level with risk of falling is not at issue here. If it is then other excersices to overcome it are in order. I don't really know what your second sentence means. Clarify, please.

    Just because you could theoretically do it doesn't make it an "option" in the sense I was using the word.

    The second sentence makes the point that if you keep going you might link a significant portion of the route. If you 1-fall a route on your first try, you know you're going to send it damn soon. If you do every move on the route except one, you know it's just a matter of learning that boulder problem. And so on.

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    See, one of my tactics may be to minimize the "overload" pump that is detrimental to efficient dogging. Another tactic is that sometimes grabbing the draw is too much of a pain in the ass to bother with, its easier to take a short fall.

    I think a better way to avoid the "overload" pump is to warm up properly, and then after a run holding your arms up in the air can help. Avoiding the pump by avoiding climbing seems a little ironic, to me :).

    In reply to:
    Mainly I use this tactic for hard projects is to get the draws on the route efficiently. Hanging on to clip the draw, then clip the rope may help create that overload pump. If you're on a ten bolt route with 50 hand moves, you add 20% more moves by clipping the rope. If it's from bad holds, hello pump. Grab the draw, pop the rope in, often its very efficient. For future burns the draw is there so you aren't on the bad holds so long.

    I'm torn on the issue of taking runs with plenty of hang-dogging in order to hang the draws. Dunno what I think of it...

    In reply to:
    Goals and values determine your strategy. "Situational" ethics insinuates that one changes ethics for a particular situation. Ethics are determined by values. If your values are consistant, so will be your ethics, and what seems like an inconsistancy will often be resolved by deeper investigation.

    I don't think that "situational ethics" insinuates anything negative. If anything it has a positive connotation. Absolute ethics are for religions and fools who think they can concieve of every possible scenario.


    unabonger


    Feb 3, 2004, 7:59 AM
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    I disagree---I think getting wildly pumped trying to link up to 5 bolts on the first try is useful, because it lets you know that those 5 bolts were "easy" enough for you to get there on attempt #1.

    But...do you disagree that getting wildly pumped doesn't further MY progress? If the climbing to the crux is hard but not cruxy, I might or might not link it on my first run. If I am linking but don't think I'm finding the most efficient way, I'll take and figure it out. I don't care if I do it my first time with 1 hang or 10. Even if I want to send it next try on the rope I'm probably better off hanging and lowering some to link through after I find the best sequences.
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    Why are you worried about wasting energy?
    I know MY limits. And I'm not worried. I'm realistic and I adjust my tactics accordingly.
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    If the route truly is that hard for you, you aren't going to send it today.
    Maybe, maybe not. See my story below. And I don't CARE if I do it with 10 hangs or one. It's still a dogged ascent. If I'm trying to onsight its a different game, and if I fall, I might lower a meter or two and wire up the crux sequence so that I know I can send it next try. But we are talking about a five letter grades harder than I've ever onsighted, not just one or two!
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    Are you trying to minimize the number of days working the route?
    Yes...
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    I would argue that linking as much as possible on the first run could help to that end, by making it clear where to focus your time working (anything you linked on the first try doesn't really need any more practice
    Well, that's where you are wrong. It doesn't really help that much, because on these routes I am often doing climbing at my onsight level up to a crux that is much much more difficult. You probably aren't finding or feeling out all the efficiencies of movement that you will need to get to the crux without being wasted. Especially for clipping stances, which can be notorious for feeling different with a full pump. Taking and lowering back to rework those sections is more efficient.

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    The second sentence makes the point that if you keep going you might link a significant portion of the route. If you 1-fall a route on your first try, you know you're going to send it damn soon. If you do every move on the route except one, you know it's just a matter of learning that boulder problem. And so on.
    Maybe you didn't see the part where we specified "hard", I was specific--a project route for me will usually be 4 or 5 letter grades over my hardest current onsight ability. What you said might be valid for routes where you are trying to extend your onsight ability a letter grade or two. And seeing how far you can link is useful, but usually not until later runs. There are exceptions, but the key is not to waste energy when you know you are working the route.
    In reply to:
    I think a better way to avoid the "overload" pump is to warm up properly, and then after a run holding your arms up in the air can help.
    I am also an advocate of a proper warmup. It's a shame that warming up properly doesn't prevent getting an overload pump, but its true.

    I'll close my debate on this matter with the story of an ascent of my hardest sport route. At the time in 94 I'd done a couple of 13's but they took a LOT of tries. But this was Vision Thing, 13b, in Rifle. Maybe 10 bolts or so. Gently overhanging, continuous 12a climbing to a harder move at the 5th or 6th bolt. Then a no hands rest, followed by more steeply overhanging 11+ or so to a harder crux throw near the last bolt.

    I got on it, no expectations, going bolt to bolt, hanging the draws, studying the clip stances, reworking sequences, linking sections, and taking. All pretty quickly but very focused and without letting myself get crazy pumped.

    Lowered off, had some water and bits of food, and about an hour or so of rest and stretching. As soon as I stepped on the rock, it was never in doubt---I sent it--note that it was my second burn.

    I'm convinced that had I tried to onsight up to the first crux on my first burn, I might have made it there--but I wouldn't have known what the hell the subtleties of the sequences at the first 5 bolts were, and on subsequent attempts I probably would have pumped out early trying to clip from inefficient stances, missing key footholds, etc.

    One key aspect of this that hasn't been mentioned but that I observe in my own and others climbing--when you are striving for, and succeeding in onsighting a route, you rarely remember later the exact sequences and subtleties you used when you were on the route. So if you try to do this on a hard project, you may find yourself struggling on later attempts to get through the stiff but not cruxy sections of the route....

    UB


    jt512


    Feb 3, 2004, 11:48 AM
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    This leads into a subject that I'd been toying with broaching, namely, that while working a project you might do seemingly non-warrior things for efficiency that you wouldn't do while on a redpoint or on-sight run. The trick is not to let grabbing draws and "taking" while working a route enforce bad habits that spill over into your other climbing.

    First comment is that the first time on the route is one of the most important times to force yourself to take the plunge, because otherwise no flash/onsight is possible. :)

    As UB said, I think we're talking about projects -- routes that are way above our best onsights. On my current project, for instance, it took me three days to figure out what I wanted to do at the crux, which is not to say that once I figured out what I wanted to do, that I could do it. Onsighting was not even a remote possibility.

    Sure, you can expect it to be very hard, and it probably will be. But why yell `take' instead of continuing to climb till you fall (even if the fall is off the starting holds :))?

    As UB and I have already said: to save energy.

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    You only get one first try...

    You're not listening. We are talking about routes that we cannot onsight. My current project is two letter grades above my hardest redpoint. The route has seen only one on-sight that I know of, by Chris Lindner, who is essentially a professional climber. I ain't no Chris Lindner (dammit!).

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    ...and if the route really is going to be that hard for you, you don't need to save energy for a send on that particular day.

    No, but I need to save energy to work the crux, so I'll hangdog to get up to the crux. If I were to climb till I fell, I would be too tired by the time I got to the crux to work the moves out. In case you haven't realized it yet, it is more efficient to work out higher sections of a route before working out lower sections.

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    Maybe you'll be able to link everything to the crux, and then after dogging the crux, link everything after it---that's not an onsight, but it can give you confidence for future attempts.

    That approach comes at the next stage, after all the moves have been worked out. On a hard project, it is much more efficient to work out the hard moves first, then start linking sections, than to work the route ground up from the very first run.

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    For me, at least, things are invariably easier than I expect.

    Not for me.

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    My view is to wait to decide that it's a project until you fall at least once.

    That's my view, too, when there is even a small chance I can onsight, but when a route is way beyond my current onsight level, I want to save energy on early runs in order to be fresh to work out the hard moves.

    In reply to:
    Are the 40-footers because you want to skip draws for energy? Or is the route bolted that way?

    I don't plan to skip any bolts. The route is sparingly bolted, with a sadistic runout to the anchors.

    -Jay


    jt512


    Feb 3, 2004, 11:57 AM
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    I don't think that "situational ethics" insinuates anything negative.

    Grabbing draws is never an ethical issue. Ethical issues are issues of right and wrong, or good and bad, by definition. Saying that grabbing draws is "situationally ethical" means that in some situations it is right and in some situations it is wrong. This is judgmental thinking, which we should avoid. There is no good or bad, or right and wrong, involved in grabbing draws. There is only the question of learning.

    -Jay


    fracture


    Feb 3, 2004, 5:39 PM
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    You only get one first try...

    You're not listening. We are talking about routes that we cannot onsight. My current project is two letter grades above my hardest redpoint. The route has seen only one on-sight that I know of, by Chris Lindner, who is essentially a professional climber. I ain't no Chris Lindner (dammit!).

    I'm not talking about onsighting it. Both you and unib are harping on this in the last two posts, so I'm guessing I was unclear.

    What I'm suggesting definitely includes getting all the beta you can, watching some people cruise it, etc. Then getting on it and climbing till you fall for your first go (which if you have the beta shouldn't be till you get to a hard move (whether it's the crux or not)). It's a flash attempt, though you are probably unlikely to succeed.

    And in response to Unibonger's story: when you send on the second try, I'd have to suggest may have had a better chance at a flash than you think. (that's of course assuming that your first "try" didn't include 20+ attempts at the crux move, and such :)). The description of the route is an excellent one where I would want to try to get to the first boulder problem without hanging on the rope.

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    ...and if the route really is going to be that hard for you, you don't need to save energy for a send on that particular day.

    No, but I need to save energy to work the crux, so I'll hangdog to get up to the crux. If I were to climb till I fell, I would be too tired by the time I got to the crux to work the moves out. In case you haven't realized it yet, it is more efficient to work out higher sections of a route before working out lower sections.

    Working the crux isn't really my goal before I've decided the route is a project.

    I understand your argument: you know it's going to be a project anyway, so your time spent projecting will be lessened if you start out with working.

    But I dispute that it's necessarily more efficient, because of the mental aspect---when you do a section on the first try without problems, you know you're never going to fall there, unless as a result of pump (and for the first section off the ground, that doesn't exist). Whether it is more efficient probably depends on how long you will be projecting the route (for the ratio of how much energy is "wasted" on that first run compared to total energy spent) and on how much you feel you benefit from that in your mental game.

    It is possibly more efficient to give it a good flash attempt, and then start working it from the top down.

    Both you and unibonger seem to be pretty confident about assessing your abilities. Maybe my opinion would change if/when I become better at that, but currently knowing that a section of the route was easy enough that I could do it on the first try helps.

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    Are the 40-footers because you want to skip draws for energy? Or is the route bolted that way?

    I don't plan to skip any bolts. The route is sparingly bolted, with a sadistic runout to the anchors.

    Sounds like the route is quite mentally challenging :D.


    fracture


    Feb 3, 2004, 5:44 PM
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    I don't think that "situational ethics" insinuates anything negative.

    Grabbing draws is never an ethical issue. Ethical issues are issues of right and wrong, or good and bad, by definition. Saying that grabbing draws is "situationally ethical" means that in some situations it is right and in some situations it is wrong. This is judgmental thinking, which we should avoid. There is no good or bad, or right and wrong, involved in grabbing draws. There is only the question of learning.

    -Jay

    You already made the ethics point (and I agreed). Unibonger was complaining about the "situational", not the "ethics", if you look at the context. :D

    However, I perhaps need to start another thread about the good/bad and learning issue. It seems to me that good can just be redefined as "that which maximizes power through learning", so that we can still use the words like in normal language. Nothing would be truly "bad", though---just maybe not as good as something else. If anyone wants to debate that they can create the thread, I guess :).


    jt512


    Feb 3, 2004, 5:57 PM
    Post #11 of 13 (3544 views)
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    Registered: Apr 11, 2001
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    Re: Situational ethics for grabbing draws [In reply to]
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    You only get one first try...

    You're not listening. We are talking about routes that we cannot onsight. My current project is two letter grades above my hardest redpoint. The route has seen only one on-sight that I know of, by Chris Lindner, who is essentially a professional climber. I ain't no Chris Lindner (dammit!).

    I'm not talking about onsighting it. Both you and unib are harping on this in the last two posts, so I'm guessing I was unclear.

    What I'm suggesting definitely includes getting all the beta you can, watching some people cruise it, etc. Then getting on it and climbing till you fall for your first go (which if you have the beta shouldn't be till you get to a hard move (whether it's the crux or not)). It's a flash attempt, though you are probably unlikely to succeed.

    Onsight, flash. Neither is going to happen. We're talking about routes that are way to hard to flash.

    In reply to:
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    ...and if the route really is going to be that hard for you, you don't need to save energy for a send on that particular day.

    No, but I need to save energy to work the crux, so I'll hangdog to get up to the crux. If I were to climb till I fell, I would be too tired by the time I got to the crux to work the moves out. In case you haven't realized it yet, it is more efficient to work out higher sections of a route before working out lower sections.

    I understand your argument: you know it's going to be a project anyway, so your time spent projecting will be lessened if you start out with working.

    Exactly.

    In reply to:
    But I dispute that it's necessarily more efficient, because of the mental aspect---when you do a section on the first try without problems, you know you're never going to fall there, unless as a result of pump (and for the first section off the ground, that doesn't exist). Whether it is more efficient probably depends on how long you will be projecting the route (for the ratio of how much energy is "wasted" on that first run compared to total energy spent) and on how much you feel you benefit from that in your mental game.

    By the time I'm ready to redoint a long-term project, I'll have done the easier sections without falls enough times that the commitment, or lack thereof, with which I climbed them on my first few runs will make no difference.

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    It is possibly more efficient to give it a good flash attempt, and then start working it from the top down.

    There's really no point in continuing to point out why, on a really hard project, that is not true. If you want to find out for yourself which is more efficient, pick two routes that are a number grade harder than what you can usually redpoint in a few efforts, and work one each way. Report back.

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    Are the 40-footers because you want to skip draws for energy? Or is the route bolted that way?

    I don't plan to skip any bolts. The route is sparingly bolted, with a sadistic runout to the anchors.

    Sounds like the route is quite mentally challenging :D.

    An opportunity to learn about long falls. ;)

    -Jay


    unabonger


    Feb 4, 2004, 7:08 AM
    Post #12 of 13 (3544 views)
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    Registered: Aug 8, 2003
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    Re: Situational ethics for grabbing draws [In reply to]
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    And in response to Unibonger's story: when you send on the second try, I'd have to suggest may have had a better chance at a flash than you think.
    Nope; not on a route this far above my onsight ability and of such consistantly hard climbing. This gets to the crux of the point I'm trying to make: The very efficient tactics I used on this route were the REASON I was able to do it on my "second" try. If I had tried onsighting up to the crux at the 6th clip, I might have made it, with a heroic struggle, but I wouldn't have known about any number of efficient movements and stances that I discovered by working the route as I did.

    In reply to:
    (that's of course assuming that your first "try" didn't include 20+ attempts at the crux move, and such ). The description of the route is an excellent one where I would want to try to get to the first boulder problem without hanging on the rope.

    Well, not 20+, probably about 4 or 5--I think I hit the move on my 2nd or 3rd attempt and then wired it in by linking from below another couple of times. Remember getting to the crux problem was protected by strenouos clips and 12- climbing, which is manageble for me, but making even one small mistake on such climbing means the clock starts ticking very quickly.

    That's the problem, really, with climbing this far over your onsight ability. If a v5 or v6 boulder problem was at the halfway mark, surrounded by 5.10 climbing, well, then going for the onsight or flash would be an option. That's rarely the case, though. Just as you find fewer 5.6 moves on a 5.11, you find few 5.10 moves on a 5.13, so getting the easier climbing wired is very important.

    All this has gotten away from the initial question somewhat. As it should: because the decision of whether to grab a draw in a given situation has to considered in a context of your own values. Any tactical decision should be tested for its "ego factor" (pg 20). Are you handicapping progress by following an ego based rule that can inhibit growth or power?

    UnaBonger


    fracture


    Feb 4, 2004, 8:02 AM
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    Registered: Jun 12, 2003
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    Re: Situational ethics for grabbing draws [In reply to]
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    In reply to:
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    And in response to Unibonger's story: when you send on the second try, I'd have to suggest may have had a better chance at a flash than you think.
    Nope; not on a route this far above my onsight ability and of such consistantly hard climbing. This gets to the crux of the point I'm trying to make: The very efficient tactics I used on this route were the REASON I was able to do it on my "second" try. If I had tried onsighting up to the crux at the 6th clip, I might have made it, with a heroic struggle, but I wouldn't have known about any number of efficient movements and stances that I discovered by working the route as I did.

    You seem confident about that, and I'm not you, so I'll defer and assume you're right.

    In reply to:
    In reply to:
    (that's of course assuming that your first "try" didn't include 20+ attempts at the crux move, and such ). The description of the route is an excellent one where I would want to try to get to the first boulder problem without hanging on the rope.

    Well, not 20+, probably about 4 or 5--I think I hit the move on my 2nd or 3rd attempt and then wired it in by linking from below another couple of times. Remember getting to the crux problem was protected by strenouos clips and 12- climbing, which is manageble for me, but making even one small mistake on such climbing means the clock starts ticking very quickly.

    That depends on the 12- climbing.

    You specified "gently overhanging", which suggested to me that at every place where you have some decent-ish holds, you'd be able to regain a decent portion of your energy by resting.

    Of course, as you mentioned, you had to hang the draws, which kinda makes it suck a bit more....

    *shrug*

    In reply to:
    All this has gotten away from the initial question somewhat. As it should: because the decision of whether to grab a draw in a given situation has to considered in a context of your own values. Any tactical decision should be tested for its "ego factor" (pg 20). Are you handicapping progress by following an ego based rule that can inhibit growth or power?

    Ahh--the suggestion being that a refusal to grab draws in the proper circumstances could be ego-based and inhibit learning?

    This seems logical to me, however, as I've mentioned, I don't think I'm yet capable of accurately evaluating exactly how hard a particular climb/move will be for me. So currently I value being able to try something before I declare it sufficiently hard that I need to work it.


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