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onegoodthingaboutmusic
Feb 11, 2004, 5:34 AM
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Hey, ive been bouldering for a while and i want to start doing some bigger things, and i was just wondering if anyone could help me out with gather some information about the basic equipment i need besides a rope.
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strider
Feb 11, 2004, 7:37 AM
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If you have to ask this question, without providing the required additional information ( like where you are climbing, your experience, etc...) then you would really benefit from reading a few books to familiarize yourself with the basics. Top-roping is easy and fun, but it still takes some knowledge to correctly and safley set it up. Just had to say that.
As far as equipment needed, I would start with the stuff listed below. Again, it depends on where you are climbing.
When setting an anchor on bolts, I use:
3 - locking biners ( 1 per bolt, usually 2 or 3 bolts)
2 - locking biners, opposed, for the Master Point (be careful which lockers you buy for this. Some D-shaped lockers, when opposed, will pinch the rope between them and cause too much drag)
1 - cordelette. This is usually the most versatile piece. Some people prefer a web-o-lette, if this is your preference.
This means the most basic TR set-up will cost you about $40, depending on where you buy and which brand you buy. If you anchors start to get funky and you want more versatility then I would add the following:
4 - lockers, you never know when you will need one
3 - shoulder length slings. shorter slings are cheaper but less versatile since longer slings can be doubled, tripled or knotted to achieve the length you need.
1 - additional cordelette. These can also be girth hitched around a tree or rock for a back-up.
50' - of nylon or static rope. This will be useful for natural anchors only, like trees and rocks.
Good luck, don't kill yourself
-n
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tucsonalex
Feb 11, 2004, 4:28 PM
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In reply to: When setting an anchor on bolts, I use: 3 - locking biners ( 1 per bolt, usually 2 or 3 bolts) 2 - locking biners, opposed, for the Master Point
I don't know why people make this so complicated as it's been rehashed time and again, but if your crag has two bolt anchors then all you need is two quickdraws. Every sport climber I know uses this set up for TR. It's a safe, simple, and proven technique. If there aren't bolt anchors then you'll need some webbing or static line for slinging rocks or trees, or some pro for building your own anchor.
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pipsqueekspire
Feb 11, 2004, 8:57 PM
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WOW- Both of these are not the best advice!!! Go get a book and better than that go take a class then go place 100 nuts cams at ground level and tug on them. Then look at some known good bolts to know what your life is hanging on. If you get the hang of it from a class then go buy $300+ worth of gear you might need.
If you want a TR a rack here is my sugestion
2x25-30 feet of 1inch tubular webbing OR 30 feet of 11mm static line
2x 15 feet webbing
2 double lenght slings- sewn or made
10-15 oval biners- most verstile and cheapest
2 lockers for various points- NOT the master point always use three ovals here (one in opposition)!! Much better for the rope and STRONG!! Thats all you need if the routes are bolted!
If its trad gear
A set of nuts BD sized 6-10 ( i think) Any smaller and the wires are too thin to be trusted on an industrial TR
A set of cams sizes .5-3 in BD or whatever other brand in those sizes.
A set of Hexes only the largest 4 or so are very useful to a beginner.
List of good knots- Bowline- Clove Hitch- Water Knot- Overhand on a bite- Fig 8 on a bite- and if you want a double loop Fig 8 or what I call a super 8 knot.
With three ropes I could probably set up three bomber anchors with the gear listed above anywhere a decent climb presents itself!
DO NOT buy quickdraws for Toproping since there is no way to safely walk to the top of most climbs that can be set up with two quickdraws!! You would have to hang by your toes to set up a climb like that!! I never need a cordolette in my TR anchors- doesnt wear well over an edge.
Enjoy and be safe!
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scubasnyder
Feb 11, 2004, 9:04 PM
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Im going to agree with tucsonalex on this one, once you have your static line or webbing set up, use pro for putting the rope where you want it.
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tucsonalex
Feb 11, 2004, 9:57 PM
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In reply to: DO NOT buy quickdraws for Toproping since there is no way to safely walk to the top of most climbs that can be set up with two quickdraws!! You would have to hang by your toes to set up a climb like that!!
If the anchors are hard to reach (I can name at least a few crags on Mt Lemmon that you can walk up to the top of the routes and clip the anchors for TR) then just get your partner to give you a belay while you downclimb to the anchors. This saves you the trouble of setting up 60 feet of neon webbing with 12 locking carabiners and looking like a complete gumby, it requires a lot less gear as well. Simplicity is key, especially for beginners. Two quickdraws are all you need for a TR anchor IF you have a two bolt anchor, otherwise read the other replies to this post regarding gear for building your own anchor.
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strider
Feb 11, 2004, 10:43 PM
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I have got some time on my hand and this seems like fun, so...
In reply to: WOW- Both of these are not the best advice!!! Go get a book and better than that go take a class then go place 100 nuts cams at ground level and tug on them. Then look at some known good bolts to know what your life is hanging on. If you get the hang of it from a class then go buy $300+ worth of gear you might need.
Before you claim to be the end all, be all of climbing knowledge, get your head out of your ass. You go ahead and spend $300 on your gear, another $300 on your classes and 3 months of training that you recommend. Meanwhile, in half the time and the cost I will be climbing on the rock, saftely.
In reply to: If you want a TR a rack here is my sugestion 2x25-30 feet of 1inch tubular webbing OR 30 feet of 11mm static line 2x 15 feet webbing 2 double lenght slings- sewn or made 10-15 oval biners- most verstile and cheapest 2 lockers for various points- NOT the master point always use three ovals here (one in opposition)!! Much better for the rope and STRONG!! Thats all you need if the routes are bolted!
If you look at my post above I mention that it depends on where you climb. With the set-up you recommend I will be carrying about 15 lbs of extra crap I don't need and I can't use most of it to even set up an anchor since most of the climbs at my local areas have bolts at the top and there are no natural features to sling. With 2 cordelettes, 6 lockers, 2 slings, a rope and belay device you can be up and running and should have no problem climbing almost any top-rope near where I live. Of course this varies by area, so while your set-up works for you, I wouldn't waste my time with it.
In reply to: 2 lockers for various points- NOT the master point always use three ovals here (one in opposition)!! Much better for the rope and STRONG!! Thats all you need if the routes are bolted!
potato vs. potahto. I would rather have two lockers, opposed. Three ovals seems like a waste of time and weight in my opinion. And each of my lockers are rated several KN stronger than any of my ovals, so I am not even a little worried about their strength.
Re:Quickdraws. I wouldn't recommend these since their application does not always make a SERENE anchor. For example, several of the TR anchors at my local crag are at the top of leaning dihedrals. This means that the anchor does not sit directly over the path of climb and if I made an anchor with quickdraws then their carbiner ends would not line up correctly and thus are not equalized. Should one fail, I would be shock loading the other. Obviously, it depends on your area. I still maintain that a cord is the most versatile and cheapest option on bolted anchors. If you have to use natural anchors then you will need some of what pipsqueekspire mentions, but probably not all of it unless you have a large group and you are the only source of gear.
-n
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climbsomething
Feb 11, 2004, 10:46 PM
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In reply to: WOW- Both of these are not the best advice!!! Go get a book and better than that go take a class then go place 100 nuts cams at ground level and tug on them. Then look at some known good bolts to know what your life is hanging on. If you get the hang of it from a class then go buy $300+ worth of gear you might need. If you want a TR a rack here is my sugestion 2x25-30 feet of 1inch tubular webbing OR 30 feet of 11mm static line 2x 15 feet webbing 2 double lenght slings- sewn or made 10-15 oval biners- most verstile and cheapest 2 lockers for various points- NOT the master point always use three ovals here (one in opposition)!! Much better for the rope and STRONG!! Thats all you need if the routes are bolted! If its trad gear A set of nuts BD sized 6-10 ( i think) Any smaller and the wires are too thin to be trusted on an industrial TR A set of cams sizes .5-3 in BD or whatever other brand in those sizes. A set of Hexes only the largest 4 or so are very useful to a beginner. List of good knots- Bowline- Clove Hitch- Water Knot- Overhand on a bite- Fig 8 on a bite- and if you want a double loop Fig 8 or what I call a super 8 knot. With three ropes I could probably set up three bomber anchors with the gear listed above anywhere a decent climb presents itself! DO NOT buy quickdraws for Toproping since there is no way to safely walk to the top of most climbs that can be set up with two quickdraws!! You would have to hang by your toes to set up a climb like that!! I never need a cordolette in my TR anchors- doesnt wear well over an edge. Enjoy and be safe!
You go, squeeky.
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maculated
Feb 11, 2004, 11:19 PM
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In reply to: You go, squeeky.
Hee hee hee . . . and here I am cursing my illness. I'm glad I saw this. That one thread actually becomes fairly educational and then extremely humorus. Hope this one goes this way, too.
Alex, I'm with you, but then again I got this stern lecture about "gate flutter" that occurs when you use only two draws for an anchor. Now I have a bunch of people who won't climb on my anchors. Whatever.
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tucsonalex
Feb 11, 2004, 11:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You go, squeeky. Hee hee hee . . . and here I am cursing my illness. I'm glad I saw this. That one thread actually becomes fairly educational and then extremely humorus. Hope this one goes this way, too. Alex, I'm with you, but then again I got this stern lecture about "gate flutter" that occurs when you use only two draws for an anchor. Now I have a bunch of people who won't climb on my anchors. Whatever.
I'd love to see someone figure out a way to generate enough force on a TR to make two quickdraws fail, even with gate flutter. I'd bet my Petzl Spirits it can't be done.
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kman
Feb 11, 2004, 11:46 PM
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Qoute
In reply to: 10-15 oval biners- most verstile and cheapest
Why the frig would you need that many biners for setting up a tr :?:
At certain areas 2 qd's aren't a good choice. Some area's I have climbed at
have their anchors pretty far back, which makes for excessive rope drag unless you extend it with a cordlette or slings or whatever. And if there are no bolts how you going to clip a qd to a tree....better have a really big gate on that biner.
Dude...get some one to show you, or take a course, cause this circus post is just going to confuse you while eveyone bickers with thier useless $.02 ( ie: pippysqueeks ).
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tweek
Feb 11, 2004, 11:50 PM
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In reply to: 10-15 oval biners- most verstile and cheapest A set of Hexes only the largest 4 or so are very useful to a beginner. I never need a cordolette in my TR anchors
My three favorite quotes.
You need a whole set of hexes to go with your full set of cam's to built an anchor? Maybe that's why you need 10-15 ovals.
I never NEED a cordelette in my anchor system either, but I almost always use one.
In reality I agree with stryder assuming you can confidently use a cordelette. I would add some long tubular webbing for extending your anchor and although the quickdraws are nice and convinient. In areas near me the bolts are not set up for this so I don't do the quick draw thing.
If you are talking about creating a trad anchor then this is a whole different (or should I say additional) set of gear and skills.
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piedradura
Feb 12, 2004, 12:08 AM
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this book is good Rock climbing A trailside Guide book and take som classes.
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climbsomething
Feb 12, 2004, 12:33 AM
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I just looked at this thread again. Oy.
In reply to: If you want a TR a rack here is my sugestion 2x25-30 feet of 1inch tubular webbing OR 30 feet of 11mm static line 2x 15 feet webbing 2 double lenght slings- sewn or made 10-15 oval biners- most verstile and cheapest 2 lockers for various points- NOT the master point always use three ovals here (one in opposition)!! Much better for the rope and STRONG!! Thats all you need if the routes are bolted! If its trad gear A set of nuts BD sized 6-10 ( i think) Any smaller and the wires are too thin to be trusted on an industrial TR A set of cams sizes .5-3 in BD or whatever other brand in those sizes. A set of Hexes only the largest 4 or so are very useful to a beginner.
But this IS coming from pipsqueek, so.....
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jt512
Feb 12, 2004, 12:33 AM
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D2 for the overall thread. Gotta love this site.
-Jay
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pipsqueekspire
Feb 12, 2004, 1:34 AM
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That was my advice. Anchors is what I do... I think a class is a good idea since I teach it! And its a great way to find out if this is the next step for you before you spend a million bucks! And you dont learn bone head ideas like using QDs
I think its STUPID to suggest that a newbie use two quickdraws in a TR and then to say if you cant reach the anchor have some one belay you as you down climb to it! WHAT THE F?? How can you be belayed down a climb safely without any anchor so you can reach the anchor that youre trying to make. Talk about backasswards logic! Then you might want to drill a few bolts up high so you can rap into the climbing area so you can use your two quickdraws!!?
Id rather look like a gumby with a bomber TR than a gumby going splat as I try to reach two bolts on a verticle wall!!
The 1st post was well thought out and I didnt mean to sound critical of the advice on the rack rather that a class is a great idea first- the second post with the two quick draws is STUPID! BAD IDEA!
I dont like using cordolette in my anchors because it doesnt do well over an edge. If I have 5 friends falling in the same spot on every climb I dont want to think about my 5.5mm cord- I do use them far back in an anchor but not often since I usually make the entire anchor from one piece of webbing (or 11mm cord) 3 placements (or 2 good bolts) and 6 biners.
Finally- the reason I use 3 ovals can be found in any AMGA hand book. I didnt say its safer I said its better for your rope. Runs smoother and I will explain in detail if you want the reasons.
I love this!! This makes my day everytime I log on!!
-pip
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climbsomething
Feb 12, 2004, 1:38 AM
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In reply to: Anchors is what I do... I think a class is a good idea since I teach it!
caveat: if the name "Batten" means anything to you, then I've been punk'd, but OH how fun it would have been!!!
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jt512
Feb 12, 2004, 2:47 AM
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In reply to: I think its STUPID to suggest that a newbie use two quickdraws in a TR and then to say if you cant reach the anchor have some one belay you as you down climb to it! WHAT THE F?? How can you be belayed down a climb safely without any anchor so you can reach the anchor that youre trying to make. Talk about backasswards logic! Then you might want to drill a few bolts up high so you can rap into the climbing area so you can use your two quickdraws!!?
If the bolts are on the face of the route, rather than on the topout, then the route is probably intended to be led. Often, these are sport routes, and there may be no safe or convenient way to set up a toprope without someone leading up the route. On sport routes the norm is to use two quickdraws with gates opposed for a TR anchor. This is sufficiently safe, provided the anchors, and the rock in which they are placed, are good. Flash: If you are unable to use the existing sport anchors, and instead rig some sort of anchor from anchor points on the topout, you are probably a gumby. If you are considering doing this, you may be in over your head. Occasionally, you may be able to access the topout and rap, or be lowered, over the edge to set up a TR, using 2 QDs, on the sport anchors; but frequently, difficult or dangerous access to the top, the possibility of knocking loose rock down onto climbers below, etc., will make this inadvisable.
On the other hand, for anchors, be they bolts or otherwise, that are on the topout, rather than the face, 2 QDs are rarely sufficient. In such cases you need to rig a standard SRENE anchor, using gear, webbing, cordelettes, or whatever the situation calls for.
In reply to: I dont like using cordolette in my anchors because it doesnt do well over an edge.
I believe that you should always use two cordelettes for a TR anchor when the cordellets have to run over an edge. I used to not think so, until I chewed up a cordelette TRing a route at J Tree. You're right, webbing might be the better choice for such anchors, especially for a dedicated day of TRing. Few more advanced climbers carry that much webbing, though, if they carry any at all.
-Jay
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tucsonalex
Feb 12, 2004, 4:27 PM
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In reply to: That was my advice. Anchors is what I do... I think a class is a good idea since I teach it! And its a great way to find out if this is the next step for you before you spend a million bucks! And you dont learn bone head ideas like using QDs I think its STUPID to suggest that a newbie use two quickdraws in a TR and then to say if you cant reach the anchor have some one belay you as you down climb to it! WHAT THE F?? How can you be belayed down a climb safely without any anchor so you can reach the anchor that youre trying to make. Talk about backasswards logic! Then you might want to drill a few bolts up high so you can rap into the climbing area so you can use your two quickdraws!!? Id rather look like a gumby with a bomber TR than a gumby going splat as I try to reach two bolts on a verticle wall!! The 1st post was well thought out and I didnt mean to sound critical of the advice on the rack rather that a class is a great idea first- the second post with the two quick draws is STUPID! BAD IDEA! I dont like using cordolette in my anchors because it doesnt do well over an edge. If I have 5 friends falling in the same spot on every climb I dont want to think about my 5.5mm cord- I do use them far back in an anchor but not often since I usually make the entire anchor from one piece of webbing (or 11mm cord) 3 placements (or 2 good bolts) and 6 biners. Finally- the reason I use 3 ovals can be found in any AMGA hand book. I didnt say its safer I said its better for your rope. Runs smoother and I will explain in detail if you want the reasons. I love this!! This makes my day everytime I log on!! -pip
So far Jay's post is the most complete and coherent in this thread, so thanks for clarifying Jay.
Pipsqueek, there are lots of crags on Mt Lemmon where you can scramble right up to the top and reach right over the edge and clip the anchors on the face. The suggestion to get a belay down to the anchors where scrambling to them would be dangerous comes FROM THE MT LEMMON GUIDEBOOK! One route in particular that I'm thinking of has a walk-up to the top. There's a boulder the size of a truck that would be great for a TR anchor if it weren't 20 feet above and 10 feet to the side of the anchors for the climb. If you're not comfortable scrambling down the ledges to get to the anchors then it's not very hard to get a belay off of the boulder to reach them. All of the routes at this crag can be led, however 75% of the people I see climbing there only ever set up a TR, do you think they flew up to the anchors? I said two quickdraws were sufficient on the condition that you were setting them up on a two bolt anchor that you could safely get to. Getting a belay down to the anchors was only a suggestion. Many standard practices differ by region, what makes sense at one crag may sound completely rediculous at another. Neither of us may be winning overwhelming support for our replies to this thread, but I think you're racking up points in the jackass category for calling others stupid and backasswards. You're not the final authority in climbing anchor knowlege regardless of how many gumby babysitting courses you've taken.
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pipsqueekspire
Feb 13, 2004, 12:45 AM
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OK after this im done- I stand by my advice. And yes I think its STUPID to tell anyone brand new to climbing to go out and buy 2 quickdraws to set up a TR. INSULT INTENDED! I can think of 10 better ways to set up a TR on a verticle face. I also think its STUPID to tell a newbie to only buy QDs then suggest that they know how to set up a belay to get down to these verticle face climbs. The only time its OK to use QDs in an anchor is when you top out on a sport route. even then if youre going to have ten friends TR it I can make a better anchor with one double length and 4 ovals- same weight and safer! Just because there are books out there on solo aid climbing doesnt mean that I would point a beginner in that direction. I would tell a newbie to stay away from climbs that you have to rap into or down climb to set up a TR so I dont care what Mt Lemmon guide book says to do!
Finally according to my odometer I have 3 times the climbing experience that you have!
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dirtineye
Feb 13, 2004, 1:42 AM
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I love pipsqueek!
Well he said look in any AMGA manual, so I got mine out, and there is nothing about setting up a top rope anchor with three biners... THERE IS however, a picture of two slings on two bolts, with a biner on each sling and the rope running through them-- the same configuration that there would be with two longer quick draws.
I did call up a friend who is an AMGA top rope site manager, passed the course and everything, and he said that you can use three biners or a locker and a biner or two lockers.
OK, I will say that I like to use two fat oval lockers for a top rope setup. IF I were going to use quick draws on bolts, I'd want em to be longer not shorter, and I'd want the biners to not pinch the rope. I'd rather use long slings and set up a slightly more complicated rig ( at least like on page 6-36 of the June 99 THPMA but with two biners... oh hell I'd just make an equalized anchor with two 4 foot slings, it only takes a second if you do it right) if a lot of people were going to be climbing on it.
For one or two folks I'd go with the longer draws ( I don't own any quick draws though) or slings.
Just for fun, the last TR I set up had a 100 foot piece of webbing set up like a giant sliding X from two trees with two locking ovals tied off at the master point with a figure 8. The biners were free and clear over the edge and the webbing ran over a rope protector. If a lot of folks were going to use it I'd add a safety piece of webbing through the biners to another tree.
What I would not do is try to piss off everyone and tell em how stupid they are and use a kabillion exclamation points and make wild claims and go off on tangents. All that does is make you look like a red faced idiot, and even if you were basically right, nobody would listen.
But they might laugh.
Any new people still reading this thread, go for redundancy and security and simplicity in your anchors. Double check em before anyone climbs on em, pre weight em before someone climbs on em, and recheck em periodically. There is a story around my part of the south about a poorly done TR set up that got used all day and at the end it was worn down to a thread. Nobody had bothered to look and see the wear.
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climbsomething
Feb 13, 2004, 1:51 AM
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In reply to: Well he said look in any AMGA manual, so I got mine out, and there is nothing about setting up a top rope anchor with three biners... THERE IS however, a picture of two slings on two bolts, with a biner on each sling and the rope running through them-- the same configuration that there would be with two longer quick draws.
According to my "odometer," teaching gumbies how to wipe their own asses with their socks and the webbing that hitches them to a boulder 5 feet away doesn't count for much practical, brag-worthy experience, squeeky...
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climbtothebeet
Feb 13, 2004, 2:41 AM
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ok guys, if u are rich enought to buy all that u have more money than me. i am a top roper, and here is my geart list.
1 harnes
3 10' runners(used for the anchors on teh belay an d at teh top)
20' of webbing(just in case, or for tying a harnes in an emergency or somtin)
1 60meter 11mm dry rope
3 locking d's(biners)
1 4'' oval (used to clip into harness)
1 petzel mico pulley(for the top of the wall)
1 figure 8, (got to repel and have fun sometime)
1 atc (belayers heaven)
1 helmet (beter safe than dead)
this is no where 500$
its around 200 if u are a good bargin buyer.
God bless
that is all my gear,
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climbtothebeet
Feb 13, 2004, 2:43 AM
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ok guys, if u are rich enought to buy all that u have more money than me. i am a top roper, and here is my geart list.
1 harnes
3 10' runners(used for the anchors on teh belay an d at teh top)
20' of webbing(just in case, or for tying a harnes in an emergency or somtin)
1 60meter 11mm dry rope
3 locking d's(biners)
1 4'' oval (used to clip into harness)
1 petzel mico pulley(for the top of the wall)
1 figure 8, (got to repel and have fun sometime)
1 atc (belayers heaven)
1 helmet (beter safe than dead)
this is no where 500$
its around 200 if u are a good bargin buyer.
God bless
that is all my gear,
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pipsqueekspire
Feb 13, 2004, 5:01 AM
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I love you guys....
nobody ever reads...its amazing! Three ovals is better for the rope..not stronger...
As for the last poster who mentioned a pulley. Why and where do you use a pulley?
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