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pipsqueekspire
Feb 24, 2004, 6:40 AM
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I just bought 2 8mm dyneema double length runners for alpine climbing and I love the size and weight but I could not untie them after bringing up the second!! I was very bummed that these slings became useless on my rack untill I could spend the 10 minutes it took to work them loose.
Anyone else have this problem?
I still want to get a few shoulder lengths for slings that I wont tie knots into but Im bummed that my double lengths seem like a waste!
-pip
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tim
Feb 24, 2004, 7:46 AM
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I have not had this problem with the shoulder-length versions (I have half a dozen on my rack) but it does not surprise me that the thinner runners can become more tightly knotted than thicker, spongier runners. TANSTAAFL. But the Mammuts are close ;-)
Sorry to hear about your crappy experience. So far my shoulder-length slings have been terrific and I am not planning to ever buy any other kind of runners in that length again. I have tied cow's tails in them, used as a short daisy, improvised etrier, etc. and no problems untying them as of yet. (not like yours at least -- a little bit of prodding with the nut tool, nothing I haven't done to nylon and thicker Spectra slings in the past)
Judging from your experience I think I will stick to thicker slings for doubles ("belay slings") where the forces are liable to be higher. Don't let it turn you off from the 24" slings.
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mingleefu
Feb 24, 2004, 8:09 AM
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????
web acronyms are getting ridiculous. imho. roflmao.
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dirtineye
Feb 24, 2004, 3:28 PM
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Poor Pipsqueek.
What knot was it, a girth hitch? An overhand? A figure 8?
IF it was an overhand then you deserved to have trouble getting it out, but for a figure 8 or girth hitch there are a few tricks.
How exactly did you try to get the knots out?
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jhump
Feb 24, 2004, 3:42 PM
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Climbing in winter or bigwall- hit with hammer. No hammer- use hex. I have 48"x8mm runners- they untie just fine. Try a figure of 9 instead of 8 (give one more wrap).
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dirtineye
Feb 24, 2004, 4:16 PM
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Beating on knots with a hammer, hex, rock or anything else is not the way.
A true figure 9 has an extra half turn past a figure 8, and it is easier to untie, and supposedly stronger too.
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jhump
Feb 24, 2004, 4:39 PM
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In reply to: Beating on knots with a hammer, hex, rock or anything else is not the way.
Maybe not THE way, but it is MY way. I use small taps, not "beating." If I feel the sling is compromised, I cut off the offending portion and use the rest for rap tat (tie it carefully, it is slippery). Then I buy some new slings. I can honestly say I have never compromised a sling with my method- at least upon visual inspection.
If the route matters to me, I am probably in a hurry. Tapping is a quick, elegant solution. On sunny, single pitchers, I may try to untie by hand.
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dirtineye
Feb 24, 2004, 5:14 PM
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Tapping is a kludge.
There ought to be a book called, "What Climbers Don't Know About Untying Knots".
Tell me what knot it is you have had to tap, I want to go tie one in an 8mm dyneema sling aqnd see how long it takes to open the right way.
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pipsqueekspire
Feb 24, 2004, 7:51 PM
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Thanks for the tips.
I still want the shoulder length runners. Anyone know where to get those cheaply?
Just to clarify I was ice climbing with the 8mm and I usually use fat spectra runners to bring up the second and never had this problem before. Even when tied with a overhand. But I can see how the smaller size will make the overhand fuse on the 8mm stuff. I'll give them another shot with a new knot. I'll try a fig 9 in the future-
-pip
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jhump
Feb 24, 2004, 8:07 PM
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In reply to: Tapping is a kludge. There ought to be a book called, "What Climbers Don't Know About Untying Knots". Tell me what knot it is you have had to tap, I want to go tie one in an 8mm dyneema sling aqnd see how long it takes to open the right way.
OK, tie whatever knot, then take a fifty footer onto it, better yet factor 2 it. Now find a graceful and effortless solution using no tools. Think fast because my hammer has already done the trick.
I don't know what a kludge is, but it sounds delicious. Is it a Klonike bar coated in fudge?
Truthfully, I have only had to use this technique of tapping a few times. It is useful when factor 2-ing onto a belay, or having a 250 lb buddy whip onto a tied runner. The aforementioned book is not necessary, as untying knots is so intuitive. By the same token, there should be a book about about how to get off rappel. I mean some people take as long as 10 seconds, but I do it in 2. Have the slow rappers been using a kludge?
It is the truly welded knots that are a grunt and the use of tools are helpful. The choice is minutes of muscles and teeth or a tap that makes the thing unravel in your hand. I choose to tap. Keep in mind I am usually alpine climbing so time is of the essence and my hands are generously gloved. I have yet to resort to tapping on my new 8mm threads, but wont hesitate when the situation arises. Haven't I any shame? If there is an art to untying knots, I frankly do not care to clutter my mind with it.
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dirtineye
Feb 24, 2004, 8:50 PM
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THE proper tool for untying a knot that is stuck, should you need one, is called a marlin spike, you can make a good one out of a big knitting needle. Of course you still need to know how to use it.
I asked for a specific knot for a reason. It's because some knots are not good-- they are very hard to untie compared to other knots. IF you are setting the crap out of an overhand, you got what you deserved. A figure 8 however should not need a hammering IF you know how to untie one. A figure 9 or a bowline are much easier than a figure 8.
If untying knots is so intuitive, how come you and a lot of other climbers do not know how to do it without a hammer a rock or a hex? maybe you have only done the hammer thing twice, but I've seen people beating on knots a lot. Sometimes they even stomp on the knots. One guy in particlular who worked in a gym always stomped on his figure 8s. I asked him why he did that, and he said,"because the kntos get set so hard from all teh falling." (this was a place that made people clip into the ropes with a bine,r yuk). Well I showed him how to get the knots out by hand and you could see the lights come on. IT's really no big deal, I learned it in sailing. Used to be any good sailor could show you how to easily untie a good knot. There is a big difference in untying a good knto and a bad knot. The overhand is notoriously hard to untie compared to the 'good' figure 8)
Anyway, none of these knot bangers knew anything about the right way to untie a knot. If it were really intuitive I would not have to show the right way to almost every climber I ever met who was trying to get a well set knot out, LOL.
Now I'm wondering if you have had to tap on a figure 9, figure 8, or was it an overhand? Of all the climbing knots, the overhand is the problem child.
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jhump
Feb 24, 2004, 9:11 PM
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Marlin spikes on alpine routes???? Or anywhere else in climbing?????
I guess I've tapped a triple fish, and probably the slipperiest knot of all the water. Normally the water can be rolled in the hands until it unravels. Catch big air on one and they can get tricky. I have also heard of climbers soloing and whipping onto cloves that became stuck. I have tapped welded double and triple fishes tied on 5.5 spectra or tech cord that had been slung on hexes for years. Those were tough.
Untying knots is intuitive to me. The ends go the opposite direction from the way they were tied. The knots I use are so simple and there are only a few of them.
I am out of this convo. I have to go practice untying knots. KNOT!!!!!!1
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dirtineye
Feb 24, 2004, 9:39 PM
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In reply to: Marlin spikes on alpine routes???? Or anywhere else in climbing?????
You are the one having trouble untying knots LOL. I've never met a knot while climbng that I could not untie with my hands. But a marlin spike made from a big knotting needle would weigh less than one of those dyneema 2 footers and take up a tiny bit of space. I'd rather carry one than beat or tap on my precious high tech fibers that the manufacturer recommends that you not even step on.
In reply to: Untying knots is intuitive to me. The ends go the opposite direction from the way they were tied. The knots I use are so simple and there are only a few of them.
that may seem intuitive, but that is not how you untie a knot. Unless you need a hammer hehe.
Seriously, a few pictures would give you a new insight into opening knots. Unfortunaltely it is not so simple to put in words. Atill it is the kind of thing taht once you co it you'll wonder why you ever did anything else.
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pipsqueekspire
Feb 24, 2004, 10:16 PM
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Do you really carry a spike with you on routes??
I guess I was so disappointed with the runners because this was not a factor 2 fall nor a whipper- this was me leaning back on the anchors or catching a small slip from my second that welded the knot. Something that normally does nothing to any knot I tie.
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dirtineye
Feb 25, 2004, 3:50 AM
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No, I suggest one for those who can't untie a knot.
But you'd be surprised at what I do carry up a route.
And I gather you had a screwup with an overhand Pipsqueek. Shame on you for using an overhand.
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coldclimb
Feb 25, 2004, 7:27 AM
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Doesn't seem like it would be much trouble at all to throw a fid of some sort inyour pocket before taking to the hills. It would be very small, weightless, and would make the hardest knots a whole lot easier.
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tim
Feb 25, 2004, 8:53 AM
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In reply to: Doesn't seem like it would be much trouble at all to throw a fid of some sort inyour pocket before taking to the hills. It would be very small, weightless, and would make the hardest knots a whole lot easier.
Yeah, until you sit on it wrong and impale your scrotum. I'll pass, thanks!
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dirtineye
Feb 25, 2004, 3:48 PM
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NOw about knot opening tools, I was sort of joking, but really, for yoru climibng rope adn slings, you do not want a sharp point at all. that's why I suggested a marlin spike made from a big knitting needle, those do not have a sharp point, just a rounded one. all you need is a 4 inch end of the knitting needle and some sort of ball on the end. This woudl be more liek a fid than a marlin spike. Made from a large hollow aluminum knitting needle this toy would weigh nothing, and would possible be a good thing for these alpine guys with the cold hands and stuck knots to use. You could put a hole in it and hang it on your harness. As for impaling yourself, well with ice axes, crampons and your knife all being much sharper than a knitting needle, I would not worry. I really think though if you stick to good knots you would rarely ever need one.
But the point is, a hammer or a foot stomp or a rock or a knife are not the right toosl to use to open a knot!
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