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dynomaster


Apr 9, 2002, 9:50 AM
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Hey All! I've never been sport climbing outdoors, only Bouldering, but i have lead sport routes indoors. My question is how do you get your draws back on a single-pitch route when you finish the route? At the gym we just leave the draws. Also, Is there a big difference between outdoor sport and indoor sport- Is there a lot I still need to know before I go? Thanks for the info!

Dyno On
Andy


dontneedfeet


Apr 9, 2002, 11:56 AM
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Should be permanent anchors at the top. Clip into those, and on the way down clean your gear.


Partner pianomahnn


Apr 9, 2002, 11:58 AM
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Andy,

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE go outdoor sport climbing your first time with an experienced climber. The last thing you want to do is go out by yourself only on the information you've recieved here.

I'm sure there are people at your local gym that wouldn't mind having a newbie sport climber along for the day.


hardcoredana


Apr 9, 2002, 12:09 PM
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Pianomahnn is correct. It is not as simple as just taking to draws off the bolts on the way down, either. How are you going to get the draws off the top anchors? Unless you are willing to leave those draws, you have to learn how to clean the top draws too, and there are only a few ways to do this safely.

I'm too lazy to explain it now. Someone else can, if they want to. Or if I have time later in the day, I will. Right now I'm supposed to be doing work!

Listen to Pianomahnn. NO, you don't have enough experience to climb outside. Go with someone who does know what they are doing. Even if I (or someone else) explain in detail how to clean a route, it is much safer to do it when an experienced climber is there to tell you what to do.

[ This Message was edited by: hardcoredana on 2002-04-09 12:11 ]


miagi


Apr 9, 2002, 1:11 PM
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dana, on a single pitch route isnt there usually shunts or rappel rings? You really dont have to clean the top because there are permenant anchors anyways. Anyways, lead sport isnt as complicated as it sounds. I must admit, go with someone who has done it before. I learned by myself which was stupid but this site helped me learn all the precautions. To clean a route that you have "finished", (finish being that you reached the top shunts) simply anchor in and setup your rope for lowering. If you dont know how to setup your rope for lowering then reply to this post and ill tell you how. Now, lets say you are stuck halfway up the route and you cant reach the permenant shunts. What do you do now? This has happened to me a few times and its a real bother. For me, the easiest way is to setup a toprope rappel and rap down and get them. There might be other, more creative ways, but since there are alot of trees around my area its no problem at all.

P.S. Good post! This is a first ive seen compared the other ones ive seen repeated 50 times.


mikedano


Apr 9, 2002, 1:34 PM
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Ok, so, I would say it is definitely better to learn how to do climbing stuff by going with someone more experienced, but I don't think it's required. Sometimes (as I know from personal experience) you just don't know anyone to go with, and you're too damn poor to shell out $100 to $200 for a stupid guide. So if that's the case--just go climb. I think if you're relatively smart and safe, you should be fine and you should just go do it.
As for your question: Climb to the top, anchor in, untie your tie-in rope, tie a loop of rope to your harness so you don't drop it, thread the rope through the anchors, feed it through all the way so that both rope ends are touching the ground, put yourself on rappel, RECHECK EVERYTHING, then undo your anchor and rap down, collecting your draws on the way.
By doing it this way you 1, save wear and tear on the anchor by rapping instead of tying back into the rope at the top and lowering and 2, don't leave anything behind.

There's lots more to learn about leading and climbing outside, but that's the basics for sport. Be safe and RECHECK EVERYTHING.


jt512


Apr 9, 2002, 2:15 PM
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Quote:Miagi: on a single pitch route isnt there usually shunts...

No, but there are sometimes "shuts."

Quote:Miagi: You really dont have to clean the top because there are permenant anchors anyways.

Unless it is your and your partners' final run on the route, you shouldn't be lowering from the shuts, as it places unnecessary wear on them. Usually, the first person up the route places draws at the anchors and lowers off them. The last person up has to clean the draws off the anchors. This necessitates untying from the rope, and, as Dana said, there are only a couple of ways of doing this safely. Most of us think that this is not something you should be learning to do on the internet, much less in a private message (which no one can check) from someone who learned it on the internet.

-Jay

[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-04-09 18:51 ]


dynomaster


Apr 9, 2002, 3:53 PM
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Thanks Everyone! I will go with someone experienced, but I want to get the concept down before I go. Mike Dano-Does your method work it there are just bolt hangers, or are shunts necessary? Magi-when you're stuck on a route you set up a TR using trees? Do you leave gear behind? What if there are no trees? Thanks Again!

Dyno On
Andy


miagi


Apr 9, 2002, 4:21 PM
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If i fall halfway up the route and cannot reach it anymore, I setup a rappel from a tree on top. I just rap down and grab the draws, then go back up to the top and take down my rap station. Since there are plenty of trees in the area, I have not used any other method. It would really suck leaving draws up on the route.

For the situation where there is no top rope anchor, I really dont know what else to do because ive never been put in that situation. Im guessing the only way is to climb up and finish the route and clean it.
One other way (maybe) is to climb up to the highest bolt you clipped, take off the draw and put an older biner on the hanger and hook your rope into it. Use the biner as a rappel ring, but your going to have to leave it up there.
If anyone else has suggestions, I would also like to know


hardcoredana


Apr 9, 2002, 7:32 PM
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Quote:dana, on a single pitch route isnt there usually shunts or rappel rings?

On most of the sport climbing I do, the anchors are rap hangers or chains. Even if you do not clip quickdraws to these, you still need to know how to safely untie your rope in order to pass the rope through the rap hanger or chain. But as jt512 said, in order to reduce wear, I always clip quickdraws into the anchors. Generally, my climbing partner(s) are going to climb the route too, and the last climber will clean all the draws before being lowered to the ground.

[ This Message was edited by: hardcoredana on 2002-04-09 20:00 ]


hardcoredana


Apr 9, 2002, 7:34 PM
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Quote:Sometimes (as I know from personal experience) you just don't know anyone to go with, and you're too damn poor to shell out $100 to $200 for a stupid guide. So if that's the case--just go climb. I think if you're relatively smart and safe, you should be fine and you should just go do it.

This is what I refer to as "natural selection".


miagi


Apr 9, 2002, 9:12 PM
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My partner I climb with (my girlfriend) does not lead climb, so I was always use to rapping off of the shuts. Sorry if I caused confusion.

As for mike's statement about being relatively smart:
I must admit, climbing with guides and experienced climbers is the best way to go, but I sadly did not. A year ago I climbed with some people, learned a few things, did some indoor climbing, then had to quit climbing all together due to various reasons. Now, 4 months ago, I started to climb again. Being my stupid self, I learned on my own. I dont know everything, but I know enough to keep me safe as well as others. Im only bouldering, top roping, and sport lead so its not that difficult. Trust me though, if I start trad, im definitly getting someone experienced


maculated


Apr 9, 2002, 9:40 PM
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I actually saw a LOT of people TRing off of the shuts they have at Owens gorge in Bishop - in fact, one of the pairs I went climbing with did it . . . erk.


crazywacky


Apr 9, 2002, 9:50 PM
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It looks like most of your questions are already answered..but I do have a suggestion for the "fail a climb in the middle, how do I clean it?" problem.

When I first started climbing, they guy that got me into it carried webbing with him, so that instead of lowering off of bolts, or anchors via chains or draws, he would tie in with the webbing and use that.

To me, it seems perfectly acceptable. And why a have one of those little spyderco type knives on my harness..to remove old webbing.


miagi


Apr 9, 2002, 10:18 PM
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eh, im not too sure about that man. If your running rope over webbing, it might melt and you'll take one helluva fall. I suppose if you REALLY didnt want to lose a biner, and it was a 40 or so foot crag, you could lower very very slowly and hopefully not melt the webbing but i still wouldnt try it


crazywacky


Apr 9, 2002, 10:25 PM
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The webbing really only came into play when we were doing the first pitch of a multi-pitch climb. By then, we would both be at the belay, so we just did a double rope rappel. Sport routes are fun like that..

I did have a climber have to back off a .12d one time in J-tree. I held him at his last clip while he tied the webbing around it and used the draw to hold himself while he re-tied the rope to his harness through the webbing. It was 40 - 50 feet, not quite a half pitch, but I did lower him slowly. It would have sucked to have to go hunt for him at the bottom...


miagi


Apr 9, 2002, 10:39 PM
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The simul rappel would be fun. I still might sacrafice an old biner though for the lowering


paintinhaler


Apr 9, 2002, 10:41 PM
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--hardcoredana--
People can get a idea on how to get top draws down from www.petzl.com with there tech manual. Well I can't find it but it comes in some of there catalogs. You might as well ask someone at your gym to get "hands on" learning. I know how to do it and I learned from a expert climber who knew what he was doing. Anywho I wasnt much help just never mind


wyoclimber


Apr 10, 2002, 3:42 PM
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heya,
when i am on lead and have to back off without topping out, i use one of those 3/8 inch chain links with the screw open side. the rope slides right through, and they can be bought at the local hardware store for less than a dollar!
Just my two cents...
b


wyoclimber


Apr 10, 2002, 3:42 PM
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heya,
when i am on lead and have to back off without topping out, i use one of those 3/8 inch chain links with the screw open side. the rope slides right through, and they can be bought at the local hardware store for less than a dollar!
Just my two cents...
b


wyoclimber


Apr 10, 2002, 3:44 PM
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heya,
when i am on lead and have to back off without topping out, i use one of those 3/8 inch chain links with the screw open side. the rope slides right through, and they can be bought at the local hardware store for less than a dollar!
Just my two cents...
b


arete2


Apr 10, 2002, 5:16 PM
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O.k. Dynomaster, Maybe I can give you what you are looking for. I learned this on the fly with my partner last summer, my partner had read it in a book, and we figured it out. Sure it is safer to go with an experienced person, but that takes some of the fun out of it. What we did when we got to the top and there were closed shuts we clipped into each shut with a draw, then I had him feed me a bunch of rope, what I did with the rope was tie a figure eight with a small loop, like just taking a bite of rope and tying it like that, hope it makes sense, then I clip it to my harness with a biner, and untie the rope from my harness, slide it through the shuts, and tie myself back in, unhook and untie the eight hooked to my harness, have my partner take, un hook the draws, then lower. If the route darts around and you think it might be hard to get some of the draws off you can hook a draw to your harness and to the rope that way you stay with the route when being lowered. Hope this helps
Arete


jt512


Apr 10, 2002, 5:42 PM
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Quote:Maculated: I actually saw a LOT of people TRing off of the shuts they have at Owens gorge in Bishop...

Yeah, which is why the shuts at Owens are in such bad shape.

-Jay


addiroids


Apr 10, 2002, 6:37 PM
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Okay, just a few points:

Do not lower off webbing!!! Even if it is slowly. If you are planning to do this, allow me to write myself into your will. What you want to do is stay clipped in, and RAP off the webbing. This solves two things:

#1) You are only placing BODY WEIGHT on the webbing. When you are lowering off anything, you are placing DOUBLE BODY WEIGHT on it. Since you weigh 180lbs, your belayer has to counter your 180 pounds with an additional 180 pounds. Those two forces pulling downward must be sustained by the top piece (in this case the webbing). So it must hold 2(180lbs)=360 pounds. When you rap, you are only putting ONE BODY WEIGHT on the sling AND it isn't rubbing with you on it (see below).

#2) You are not running nylon on nylon while it is weighted. There is no additional danger TO YOU to rap off webbing. However when you pull the rope, it will run across the webbing and weaken it. If you know how to recover the webbing after lowering, even better. If not, get John Long's Advanced Rock Climbing. It is in there.

My second point I would like to say is to reiterate what wyoclimber said so elloquently 3 times. Buy some "quicklinks from the hardware store. Buy the big ones (1/2 inch inside diameter) so your rope will pull. They are like $0.89 and hold like 5000lbs. Much cheaper than a $4.00 biner and just as save if not safer since they lock shut (do that!).

Just be safe, get a teacher, and dammit, don't bail on sport climbs!! Most likely you can just clip a sling to the bolt you are on and fake top step to the next bolt since they are usually belly bolts. Or just carry some small hooks (BD Talon) so you can just aid past the hard stuff. Difficulty shouldn't be an excuse to bail. Just aid it!! (Nike should get into the aid shoe biz).

TRADitionally yours,

Cali Dirtbag (who may not have style, but does have ethics)

[ This Message was edited by: addiroids on 2002-04-10 20:06 ]


verticallaw


Apr 17, 2002, 4:25 PM
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I learned a slick trick for cleaning gear from your route withour uniting your rope from your body.
1) clip in to the anchors at the top of the route. ( typical clip in station)
2) pull up some slack and push a bight through both rap rings
3)tie a double figure of eight into the end of the bight
4)Clip the figure of eight into your harness and untie your original figure of eight (the one you tied when you started the climb.

Voilla your rope is set to lower you by your belayer and you never had to rely on only your station draws. I do this when I clean a route and it works great the only drawback is that you end up with a long tail of rope from your harness knot.

Good luck

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