|
crux_clipper
Apr 11, 2002, 5:27 AM
Post #1 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 14, 2001
Posts: 531
|
My question is:
Why does everybody put a set of cams over a set of nuts or hexes in their trad racks? For the price of 2 cams, I can buy a full set of hexes that cover those sized cams and more.
I know their convenient, cams, but is a cam placement any safer than a bomber nut or hex placement. Would you RATHER place a cam over a hex or nut?
|
|
|
|
|
apollodorus
Apr 11, 2002, 5:51 AM
Post #2 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2002
Posts: 2157
|
Cams are generally faster to place. A good climber can spot a good placement, and stick a hex just as fast, but overall, cams are faster. Hexes have a good size range, but not continuous like a cam.
Cams can walk if the rope is whipped around as you move up, while hexes are pretty stable.
Finally, I've never seen or heard of anyone hammering a cam into a roof piton scar, but the most bomber piece when I did the Bishop's Terrace was a drilled #8 hex that had been called up for bashie duty.
|
|
|
|
|
blimpdriver
Apr 11, 2002, 6:24 AM
Post #3 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 83
|
cams over hex's? I love my hex's and they are totally bomber but cams rock! the speed of placing a cam over a hex, you can't beat it
|
|
|
|
|
kaptk
Apr 11, 2002, 6:25 AM
Post #4 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 5, 2001
Posts: 423
|
In John Long's "How To Rock Climb" he stresses the importance of being able to place passive gear. He also says that he would rather have a bomber hex than a cam most of the time. However, the instructor of my rock climbing class hardly ever uses his bigger hexes. He uses the smaller ones. He doesn't like the bigger hexes because they are bulky and make a lot of noise on his rack. He also likes the cams because of the convenience factor. They can be placed faster. I am working on buying a trad rack right now. I at first thought that I would get a full set of hexes, but I probably won't now. From what I have heard from different people, I am probably better off spending the money on nuts, cams, and tri-cams. However, my next purchase will be a helmet.
|
|
|
|
|
crux_clipper
Apr 11, 2002, 11:28 AM
Post #5 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 14, 2001
Posts: 531
|
I only climb on passive at the moment. I have no money left to spend on cams. I will buy cams, but I won't look for cam placements over passive. No way!
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Apr 11, 2002, 11:37 AM
Post #6 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
"Why does everybody always..."
Everybody doesn't, as I will always opt for passive pro over active when I can place it. I save my cams for strenuous quick placements, or when I cannot efficiently get a passive piece in.
I have found that lazy or inexperienced climbers opt for active over passive.
rrrADAM
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2002-04-11 04:39 ]
|
|
|
|
|
crux_clipper
Apr 11, 2002, 11:44 AM
Post #7 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 14, 2001
Posts: 531
|
rrradam, you summed it up so easily. Thats exactly how I think of the cams v passive pro.
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Apr 11, 2002, 12:31 PM
Post #8 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
I like to save them for the "crux_clip" but often sew up climbs w/ stoppers alone.
|
|
|
|
|
wigglestick
Apr 11, 2002, 2:12 PM
Post #9 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 1235
|
It also depends on where you climb. Passive gear works great in rock types where the rock is featured and the cracks form with little constrictions. But in splitter, parallel smooth cracks like you often find in the desert southwest areas like Indian Creek, a cam is the only piece that will work in that type of crack. Sure most of those routes were put up before cams were on the market, but those people were crazy!!
Every piece of gear has its own niche where it performs the best. Part of being an experienced climber is knowing these niches and exploiting them to make life easier for yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
cdb1386
Apr 11, 2002, 2:49 PM
Post #10 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2001
Posts: 391
|
I think having a solid foundation in placing passive gear is essential to being a good leader. Cams can be quick and easy, but experience with placing both correctly is very important.
|
|
|
|
|
fishbait
Apr 11, 2002, 2:54 PM
Post #11 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 19, 2002
Posts: 51
|
That's harsh rrradam...
"I have found that lazy or inexperienced climbers opt for active over passive."
I would have thought someone with your experience would know better...
|
|
|
|
|
passthepitonspete
Apr 11, 2002, 3:06 PM
Post #12 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2001
Posts: 2183
|
I agree with Cooper above. [Like, welcome aboard, eh?]
Unless you are climbing in an area where there is nothing but parallel-sided cracks, then as a beginner you should first learn how to place nuts and hexes.
Invest your money first in a good set of wires, and double up on the key sizes for your area. Next you should buy some hexes - probably in the #6 to #10 range, one of each or so depending on what size cracks you're climbing.
I would next make sure I had enough crabs and slings and accouterments.
And then, if you had any money left, it might be time to look at purchasing a couple-three cams in the sizes you are most likely to use.
But make sure that you are first solidly grounded in the placement of passive pro before you start rushing off and buying the active stuff.
Cheers,
Pete
P.S. I believe I own about forty-four cams at current count. I have not placed a hex in years because I loaned them out and have yet to see them return.
However, after twenty-three years' experience, I believe I have earned the right to use cams when I feel like it, and have earned the right to be lazy.
Therefore with impunity I write,
"Don't do as I do - do as I say!"
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! [Diabolical Dr. Evil Laughter]
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Apr 11, 2002, 3:17 PM
Post #13 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
fishbait...
Quote:
"I have found that lazy or inexperienced climbers opt for active over passive."
I would have thought someone with your experience would know better...
Not trying to be harsh.
As I said, "I have found...", and I have found this to be true through my experience. From what I have seen, lazy or inexperinced climbers will opt for a cam over a nut where they can place both. When I first started, I did the same thing.
wiggle makes a good point above regarding perfect splitters, as I would quickly place a cam instead of messing with a hex to get it to cam properly.
|
|
|
|
|
radistrad
Apr 11, 2002, 4:09 PM
Post #14 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 25, 2002
Posts: 800
|
I am experienced and lazy! I love my cams and want to be buried with them.
Lately I find that I am using more cams than stoppers, I never use my hexes.
I beleive the reason for my heavy cam usage is that I am trying to push my leading grades. Currently I am trying to push my leading skills into the high 10's, I do almost all of my climbing in Yosemite, where I feel that 5.10 actually has a real meaning. (Dont bash me on this, my local climbing area Castle Rock State park in Saratoga, CA has soft 5.10 usually one move wonders, in Yosemite on climbs there can be several 5.10 crux moves as well as several 5.8 and 5.9 moves, to me this means more than making one move and the "climb" is over)
Cams are easy to place and remove, can rotate and still be a good placement, however I sling almost every placement to avoid any lifting (nuts) or rotating (cams).
Cams are quite pricey and it was not really until the last two to three years that I finally got a decent rack of cams.
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Apr 11, 2002, 4:19 PM
Post #15 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
radistrad is rad.
|
|
|
|
|
atg200
Apr 11, 2002, 4:26 PM
Post #16 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 4317
|
Every piece of gear has its own advantages and drawbacks. Stoppers are incredible bomber and easier to visually inspect than any other piece of gear, but usually aren't multidirectional and always require a draw. Tricams are wonderful in horizontals and are nice for specialty placements, but have a tendency to wobble and fall out unless seated behind some sort of crystal. I rarely use hexes anymore, but they are great when you don't have many cams and are really nice for alpine routes to use as leaver gear or to save weight on cams.
Cams are fast to place, usually multidirectional, and often don't require a sling. They also work where nothing else will - hard to think of a replacement for a small alien in a thin placement. And as previously mentioned, good luck doing Supercrack at Indian Creek with stoppers.
andrew
|
|
|
|
|
radistrad
Apr 11, 2002, 4:36 PM
Post #17 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 25, 2002
Posts: 800
|
thanks rrrAdam,
but what is really rad is climbing in Yosemite and trying to push the grades!
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Apr 11, 2002, 5:01 PM
Post #18 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
If you're getting "air time" then you're pushing yourself.
For me... Part of climbing up, is being willing to fall down. Nothing gets the adrenaline pumping like being 10+ feet above your pro and climbing at or close to your limits.
|
|
|
|
|
danl
Apr 11, 2002, 5:13 PM
Post #19 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 12, 2001
Posts: 288
|
I climb at the gunks...bought a set of hexes cause I thought they would be cheaper. Well i use them out west alot but at the gunks a set of stoppers, a couple tricams, and a set of cams is pretty standard. Hexes don't place as well is some of the horizontals. And while you can get opposed nuts and some tricams in, I am a big fan of the right tool for the right job.
|
|
|
|
|
camhead
Apr 11, 2002, 6:06 PM
Post #20 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
|
hey atg200,
You probably already know this, but Supercrack was put up with Hexes! Wiggins had cajones, though.
Screw that, though. I'd take a buttload (technical term) of #2 and #3 Camalots anyday on that thing!
I have only used hexes once, but I have only climbed granite once. It is almost unthinkable to place hexes or stoppers in sandstone, although there are a couple of routes on Wall Street that have some possiblities.
When I am pumped out, way above my last piece, and the handcrack just became off-fingers, there is nothing like just throwing a cam right in to save my sorry ass.
|
|
|
|
|
hangerlessbolt
Apr 11, 2002, 6:11 PM
Post #21 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 2, 2001
Posts: 7255
|
Ooh ooh...sign me up with the lazy and/ or inexperienced...
Love my cams...then again...I love my nuts; however, I only share a remote friendship with my hexes.
Cams= one piece, one biner, maybe a runner...Bam!
Nuts= 5-6 per biner...a little fumbling, a runner...then Bam!
Hexes= clankity- clank- clank...leave 'em at the bottom of my pack...and Bam! I use a Cam
Anywho, do what you like for you. Know your gear, whatever you choose...know it and know the gear your partner uses.
In the beginning, I climbed with only passive pro and I still use it quite frequently. But as soon as I was able to come up with the "scratch" for a set of BD Camalots, I jumped on 'em. (Not literally, mind you)
Prior to my first purchase, however, I had the opportunity of climbing with various partners (notice the "am i a slut" thread) and in doing so got to sample an assortment of gear. Thus giving me a much better idea of what I would like and what I would rather do without.
-Hanger
(Odd name for a trad climber)
|
|
|
|
|
atg200
Apr 11, 2002, 7:21 PM
Post #22 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 4317
|
Yeah camhead, and he also finished it to the rim - which I've never seen anyone else do before either. Rules and sometimes the laws of physics just don't seem to apply to guys like Wiggins, Dunne, Carter, Webster, or Kor.
|
|
|
|
|
jer
Apr 11, 2002, 7:47 PM
Post #23 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2000
Posts: 426
|
quoting rrradam:
"I have found that lazy or inexperienced climbers opt for active over passive."
I disagree.
I pass up great nut placements on long routes(and short for that matter) when I see a great TCU placement just ahead. No fiddling, no messing around with a draw, just plug and keep movin'. Because of my EXPERIENCE, I know when a cam is bomber and can place them as quick as clipping a bolt. Speed is the key for me- fluid movement over mucho stone. The less passive pieces I place, the less hassle my follower has trying to tool it out. On my rack I carry ONE set of nuts(slimmed down if it's a route that obviously doesn't have a thin section); One full set of Cams(unless I'm linking pitches, then two sets) and ZERO hexes. My hexes are bookends and I have even filled up some small ones with wax and made candles out of them. I learned with hexes because it's all I could afford and felt the need to really KNOW passive placements. I learned...then I moved on. I'm not LAZY, I am efficient and smart about what I use. Hexes slow me down, they make a lot of noise, and also take MORE time to place when climbing at my limit....which is always! I use this rack from JTree to Tuolomne, Red Rocks to my local choss piles.
I could care less about their "classic" nature...or their "traditional" character. When I am climbing out in the backcountry and hear the cow bells coming, I know some gumby has them strapped to the outside of his pack so that all may know how experienced and efficient he is, but in my heart I smirk and nod, knowing that fast, quiet and free is the way to go for me...and maybe one day he will learn too.
Jwhere?
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Apr 11, 2002, 7:56 PM
Post #24 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
"I pass up great nut placements on long routes(and short for that matter) when I see a great TCU placement just ahead."
This is your argument for disagreeing with me ??? TCU's are passive pro. Just like a hex is passive, but be placed in a camming position.
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2002-04-11 12:58 ]
|
|
|
|
|
wigglestick
Apr 11, 2002, 8:01 PM
Post #25 of 39
(5635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 1235
|
I think one of you is confusing a Lowe/Camp tri-cam with a TCU (three cam unit).
They really should rename one of those to end the confusion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
