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dingus
Apr 14, 2004, 1:13 PM
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dmt
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piton
Apr 14, 2004, 1:27 PM
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totally agree with you dingus. even though you slammed jersey climbers :wink:
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noshoesnoshirt
Apr 14, 2004, 1:38 PM
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In reply to: I too took a fatal plunge and lived to tell about it.
huh?
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shakylegs
Apr 14, 2004, 1:38 PM
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You "took a fatal plunge and lived to tell about it"? How's that working out for you?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
ETA: damn, noshirt beat me to it.
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crimpinhard
Apr 14, 2004, 1:48 PM
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I fully agree, anytime anyone ropes up or highballs you take the risk of decking. for me thats half of the fun. we climbers are adrenaline junkies we love taking risks, thats why we climb. if i didnt come nown from a climb tired and shaking from the rush, I would not do it.
I say to those who judge, Worry about your own lives, because wether or not I or any other climber orphans their children by decking, is frankly none of your damn concern. Its tragic, but its the reality we (you) face everytime.
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chizelz
Apr 14, 2004, 1:50 PM
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amen brutha!!
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sarcat
Apr 14, 2004, 1:55 PM
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Agreed. Look in the mirror before you post your opinon. Arrogance is the root of all evil. Nice one dingus.
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deleted
Deleted
Apr 14, 2004, 1:57 PM
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as usual; nicely said, dingus.
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atg200
Apr 14, 2004, 2:32 PM
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i don't really agree at all. if your day to day climbing is so risky that you can't justify the risk, then you are doing something very wrong. a freak accident can happen, but it can while you are driving a car, crossing the street, or eating a bony piece of fish too.
an accident like amber's on a route like moonlight buttress should have been a freak accident for anyone prepared for the route. unfortunately in amber's case it was an accident waiting to happen. i've climbed with amber quite a bit, and took her up her first big routes, and i've been worried for months that she was going to do something like this. i and a few others warned her repeatedly that she wasn't ready, and pointed out specifically why not. unfortunately she did not listen.
questioning someone's judgement and trying to reel them in when they are doing something stupid is not the same as telling them they are a bad person, which amber most certainly is not. if amber had paid attention to those of us who were "judging" her climbing ability, she wouldn't have nearly died the other day.
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karlbaba
Apr 14, 2004, 2:39 PM
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I don't judge Amber a bit.
I also don't judge the folks who told her in advance that she wasn't ready. You need friends who know you to give you perspective when you're not fully experienced.
Then if you are really determined and forwarned, you can still go for it and overcome yourself and the naysayers.
or die.
Folks who have comments to make in hindsight might be helpful or judgemental. Who's to judge? It all part of the process.
I do know that accidents and tragedies can happen to anyone. I know I'm not safe
Peace
karl
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vertical_reality
Apr 14, 2004, 2:42 PM
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Is there a thread about Ambers accident?
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fargoan
Apr 14, 2004, 2:57 PM
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In reply to: if your day to day climbing is so risky that you can't justify the risk, then you are doing something very wrong.
why?
who gets to say what is "right" and "wrong," to judge?
it seems that Dingus's point is that every woman/man is responsible for their decisions, be they informed or otherwise.
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bobd1953
Apr 14, 2004, 3:02 PM
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In reply to: I see that doens't slow down others very much though. Risk tolerance is a very personal thing. And yet, since we are all supposedly climbers here we can begin with the notion that each of us assumes undue risk EVERY TIME we go climing. We like to delude ourselves in a sense, reassuring each other that we are safe in what we do. And yet... anyone who declares climbing to be "safe" is in my humble opinion a fool.
Well I do judge Amber for her lack of judgement and overstating her skills.
Yes, there is risk involved every time we rope up, but...one can stack the cards in their favor by having a strong climbing background, realize one's limitations and through experience realize when one is in over their head and get out safely and in one piece.
The bottom line is Amber with her lack of skills should not have been on that wall.
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climberchic
Apr 14, 2004, 3:11 PM
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In reply to: Is there a thread about Ambers accident?
Tell me you jest.....
While I completely agree with the context of the post, I think the title is bad form to call attention to Amber like that.
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vertical_reality
Apr 14, 2004, 3:34 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Is there a thread about Ambers accident? Tell me you jest.....
Nope
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climberchic
Apr 14, 2004, 3:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Is there a thread about Ambers accident? Tell me you jest..... Nope
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=57099&forum=43
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unabonger
Apr 14, 2004, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: So I don't fault ambition in someone like Amber. Between you and me I don't judge her at all.
I still have at least 10 pages of "the thread" to wade through, but I'm sure we can distinguish between "judging Amber" and judging her decisions and the systems she was using on that wall.
I agree with the dingus that ambition itself is difficult to fault. Anyone who's felt burning desire to DO SOMETHING understands that ambition. If we all waited until we had enough experience to do a big wall according to exacting protocols with flawless judgement nothing would ever get climbed.
But in a larger sense we of course all judge on various levels all the time. Its a requirement for making decisions. Would the dingus go up on a Zion wall with Amber? Maybe you would now with decades of experience, but would you have done it with 2 walls under your belt?
Maybe we can't judge ambition per se, but we should examine that line where it turns into recklessness and see if we can't learn something about how to approach that blurry spot where "that which is what we don't know that we don't know" lurks.
The BlurredBonger
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vertical_reality
Apr 14, 2004, 4:04 PM
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Thanks
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calamity_chk
Apr 14, 2004, 4:06 PM
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Dingus and I have shared enough PMs that it's not offensive, though something more witty would be way cool.
I doubt that I'll post much to this thread, but I will say that the beauty of humility is the loss of ego and shame. Quite honestly, I dont care much about random people's thoughts of me. I did what I did, and I posted it because I wasnt the only one doing it. If you think that I havent learned from it, you're as dumb if not moreso than I ever was.
If you think that judging me will have a greater impact on my life than barely slipping through death's cold fingers, then perhaps you should check your own ego. If you think your words are more powerful than seeing my son for the first time after the accident, then again, check your own ego.
Judge me if it makes you feel better, I dont care. I'm alive, I'm crawling out of debts, and I still have my family and friends. If you think internet opinions of me are more important than those things, perhaps you need to reconsider the grand scheme of things. just my .02.
As for me, I will still seek the opinions and advice of friends who climb with me regularly, people who are aware of my current set of skills and weaknesses, people who are close enough to me to understand how much I've been affected by this. People who wont judge me as a person but will help me grow as a climber. And, I will listen carefully to what they say and listen even closer to what they're not saying.
And, though I will seek their advice, I will rely more on my own assessments than the assessments of others. I am becoming more self-sufficient and will use others' opinions to gauge my own self-awareness until I feel comfortable with my ability to properly gauge risk vs my personal ability.
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calamity_chk
Apr 14, 2004, 4:12 PM
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PS - I know that there are a lot of strong opinions on both sides of the debate, and it would be way cool if you guys could argue civily so that this doesnt end up in Archives for being a flamefest.
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tedc
Apr 14, 2004, 4:22 PM
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In reply to: Well I do judge Amber for her lack of judgement and overstating her skills. Yes, there is risk involved every time we rope up, but...one can stack the cards in their favor by having a strong climbing background, realize one's limitations and through experience realize when one is in over their head and get out safely and in one piece. The bottom line is Amber with her lack of skills should not have been on that wall.
I disagree. Yes, she put herself in a recklessly dangerous situation by attempting the climb with her level of experience. Whether she (or any one else) should or "should not" have been on the climb is up to them and their personal risk tolerance.
By your logic no one should tackle any objective that is beyond their ability to control. No one should EVER venture on to K2. My guesstimation is that Ambers risk of injury or death on MB was significantly less than that of any competent alpinist attempting K2.
Risk is a requirement of reward. Reckless risk is often rewarded most highly. (Just read AAJ.)
If you want to "judge Amber" judge her inaccurate "risk assessment skills" (beating dead horse) but not whether someone with a certain skill set SHOULD or SHOULD NOT attempt something.
Ted (which line do I stand in for my Climbers License) Compton
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elvislegs
Apr 14, 2004, 4:27 PM
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To me, the climbing progression is alot like growing up. Some people might rush things a bit, even against all sensible warnings from those around them. But, like Dingus said, it's personal, so when a friend goes for something a little bit beyond them, against our wishes and warnings, there's nothing we can do. Having no control sucks (ask any parent), But that's life.
As to "judging" Amber. She knows she f-cked up, I think Amber judged herself plenty. Everyone else is either trying to learn from it, or saying "I told you so". Decide for yourself which one of those is more useful.
Glad you are okay amber-chk.
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bobd1953
Apr 14, 2004, 4:49 PM
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In reply to: By your logic no one should tackle any objective that is beyond their ability to control. No one should EVER venture on to K2. My guesstimation is that Ambers risk of injury or death on MB was significantly less than that of any competent alpinist attempting K2
Amber was far from being a compentent big-wall climber. You just don't get it, do you?
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dingus
Apr 14, 2004, 4:55 PM
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In reply to: Well I do judge Amber for her lack of judgement and overstating her skills. Yes, there is risk involved every time we rope up, but...one can stack the cards in their favor by having a strong climbing background, realize one's limitations and through experience realize when one is in over their head and get out safely and in one piece. The bottom line is Amber with her lack of skills should not have been on that wall.
I don't know what her skills are so I don't know if she "should have been" on that wall or not. I would suggest that is her call to make, not ours. Should Jim Madsen have been rapping off the edge of El Cap to check on his friends? Some of the best have gone off the ends of their ropes after all.
Certainly, we can analyze accidents and cite judgement errors. So I agree with you in that sense... as with the opinion offered by Kodos... one doesn't want to rappel off the end of one's rope. Mistakes. Bad decisions. OK.
But to say that her ambition is what got her in trouble is to fault the ambition of damn near every climber I have ever known. When we are pushing our limits (on any thing) there is only one real way to determine what those limits are... by exceeding them. Climbing offers us the chance to dance with the line, hopefully without crossing through the veil darkly.
My first wall was done with partner who was also doing his first wall. Now I had many, many years of multipitch under my belt at that time. My partner was a bit less experienced but had already done numerous grade IV's. Anyway, the point is, neither of us KNEW we were ready until we basically topped out.
Now of course I stacked the deck! I knew I would have to carry the lion's share of planning and upward momentum. So I studied, practiced and memorized until I was fairly confident that I could accomplish the tasks required.
But the base ambition... of going where we haven't gone before and presumably have no business going in the first place... isn't that part of what climbing is all about???
I still say, don't fault her ambition!
Cheers
DMT
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aikibujin
Apr 14, 2004, 4:56 PM
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In reply to: we climbers are adrenaline junkies we love taking risks, thats why we climb.
I don't agree that all climbers are adrenaline junkies. Different people climb for different reasons. You may climb for the rush of adrenaline, but I climb because I enjoy being in the outdoors, and enjoy a physical challenge. Everyone is different.
In reply to: Worry about your own lives, because wether or not I or any other climber orphans their children by decking, is frankly none of your damn concern.
While I agree with you that my life is my own, and I should be free to do with my life whatever I want. But I also think that risking my life without considering the people I affect, such as my parents, my (non-existence) spouse, and my (again, non-existence) children, is just selfish. Whenever I hear about a death of a climber/mountaineer, I automatically think about his/her family, think about the grief they are going through. Death hurts only for a split of a second (as far as I can guess, since I haven't experienced it myself), while the pain of loosing someone you love last for weeks, months, if not years.
I have only been climbing for a year, so this is just a view of a beginner. Since I started climb I have thought about this issue, and I decided that it's fine to risk my own life, but it's not fair to hurt others. As long as I love climbing and keep challenge myself with harder and more dangerous climbs, I will not get married or have children. This way if I ever die as a result of me taking risk with my life, I won't leave an orphaned child who would hate me for the rest of his/her life. And let's hope I won't have any accidents before my parents passing away.
Again, this is what I chose to do with my life. I'm not saying it's what everyone should do. Your life is yours and yours alone, but it's not a bad thing to be considerate about people around you.
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