|
|
|
|
chrisharkness
May 3, 2004, 8:17 PM
Post #1 of 118
(21076 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 31, 2003
Posts: 17
|
The Gri Gri that failed:
Gri Gri's are an incredible device, safe, sound, and almost completely idiot-proof; however in the summer of 1999, I was first-hand witness to one that tragically failed up on the North Shore of Lake Superior.
I had just gotten into climbing about 3 years prior and we were setting up one of our favorite climbs, "Ross's Crack" 5.10a, at Tettegouche State Park. We set up an anchor to two trees, equalized, and set up the belay device, the Gri Gri, on the edge of the cliff on a piece of canvas being used as edge protection. Now, the climbing on the North Shore is such that the climber must be lowered down from the belayer above, and get top-roped out (similar to some climbs in the Verdon Gorge in France). I went first, was lowered down on the GriGri, and climbed out no problem. Then my buddy's turn. He started getting lowered; then about 8 feet down, the belayer and I heard a grinding noise and the rope snapped, sending my friend 200 feet to his death. This accident proceeded to be investigated extensively by mountaineering professionals for the next 2 years unsuccessfully, and the case was pronounced unsolved. A "freak accident" was all anyone could come up with, but the truth was there, the GriGri had miraculously failed. I'd be curious to hear people's reactions to this story.
Chris
Duluth, MN
|
|
|
|
|
jhump
May 3, 2004, 8:29 PM
Post #2 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 7, 2002
Posts: 602
|
I am sorry for your loss.
Did the Gri Gri break apart or deform in a way that could have cut the rope? Could the rope have been cut over an edge?
|
|
|
|
|
crimpandgo
May 3, 2004, 8:31 PM
Post #3 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 1005
|
I react with sadness whenever i read about stories like this. Did you actually see what was happening with the GriGri? Did it snap, or just slip, etc.? You said the rope broke? Did it look like the rope was binding in the GriGri causing it to wear possibly? Was the rope rubbing on rock possibly that you didn't know about, or are you pretty certain it was caused by/arund the GriGri? In any case, my sympathies go out to the people and families involved.
|
|
|
|
|
highminded
May 3, 2004, 8:31 PM
Post #4 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 19, 2004
Posts: 93
|
I'm not sure I understand... by "the rope snapped" do you mean it was severed/cut? In that case, it was the rope that failed, not the Gri-Gri, Unless you think something about the Gri-Gri cut into the rope, which I can't envision unless the Gri-Gri was somehow damaged or altered.
If the rope broke, I'd be inclined to think that either it was damaged to begin with, got rubbed over the edge of the cliff, or both. If you're using a Gri-Gri properly, even if the locking mechanism fails, you can still use your brake hand to pull down and arrest a fall.
Can you give more info about the incident? It might help to determine what happened.
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
May 3, 2004, 8:33 PM
Post #5 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
was the grigri on the anchor or on the belayer redirected through the anchor?
you said the rope snapped? how is that grigri failure?
more details are needed before i'd even begin to guess as to what caused the failure.
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
May 3, 2004, 8:56 PM
Post #6 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
Have you read the report on you're friends death? (Assuming this is not a troll based on said report)
I am glad you posted this because this is the most complete SAR report I have ever seen or heard of.
Most likely the rope was cut by a piece of rhyolite that worked it’s way into a improperly used grigri. (layed on its side at the edge of a ledge)
Incredible
http://www.esssar.org/...ts/Public_Report.pdf
|
|
|
|
|
chrisharkness
May 3, 2004, 9:16 PM
Post #7 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 31, 2003
Posts: 17
|
In response to all inquiries: the most likely explanation is that a piece of rhyolite worked its way in to sever the "S" twists, and another to sever the "Z" twists. THis is how it was explained to me. Though, still the most ridiculously miraculous thing I've ever even heard of. Yes, I witnessed it and saw the rope break inside the Grigri, and fly out severed, and seriously mangled. I personally inspected the rope and Grigri (both almost brand new and in perfect condition) Edge protection was used, and there was nothing about this canvas that could have broken the rope. No this is not a troll, or whatever; this is very much for real. Though Grigris are made to spit out debris, I would encourage careful use when using it in this manner. Though it's weird, because while trying to simulate this accident, they destroyed hundreds of feet of brand new Mammut ropes (the rope that broke) using pieces of rhyolite, glass, metal, etc. and the Grigri, and other Grigris, spit out the debris, and the rope wasn't damaged very much--they never got one to sever. This really was just a freak accident. Thanks for your responses guys, keep them coming. I'd like to hear if anyone's ever heard of a similar accident.
Chris
duluth, MN
|
|
|
|
|
stevep
May 3, 2004, 9:45 PM
Post #8 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 20, 2004
Posts: 93
|
That was indeed a thorough and impressive accident report.
The only thing in the report I'd argue with is their statement about using Occam's Razor that guessed that the simplest and thus most likely scenario was that the hypothetical object in the Gri-Gri caused both the cut in the sheath and the core. Given that all their tests couldn't cause this to happen, I'd say this is a dubious use of Occam's razor. It seems a more simple and likely explanation that a sharp edge external to the Gri Gri caused the core damage.
The original post title is also incorrect and a poor choice of words. It implies that the Gri Gri had some sort of mechanical failure. This is not supported at all by the accident report. A better characterization might be "Rope failure, possibly due to incorrect use of Gri Gri and possible sharp edge in the environment". This doesn't seem to me to be any more a failure of the Gri Gri than it would be if a rock had fallen on the rope and cut it.
|
|
|
|
|
chrisharkness
May 3, 2004, 10:07 PM
Post #9 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 31, 2003
Posts: 17
|
I did not mean to imply that the GriGri was the sole cause of this accident. If anything, the only way in which it failed is the fact that it didn't spit out the debris, if this is indeed how it was severed. It could have also been the rope (though the actual and additional ropes were tested in numerous tests, and it was concluded that the used rope was in very good condition) I know for a fact that it was loaded and used properly, I did it myself, and pictures were taken of the setup after the accident by a third party to verify that it had been rigged properly. I also know that there were no foreign sharp objects present to cut the rope. I was sitting three feet from the anchor and was looking right at the device along with the belayer as it cut the rope. Of course, the whole thing happened so fast, that my belayer's reaction time was not quick enough to stop the accident from happening, though a grinding noise did preclude the severing. Though not likely, the rock debris solution really does seem like the only possible solution.
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
May 3, 2004, 11:09 PM
Post #10 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
hrm, interesting report.
this is a wild guess, but perhaps the piece of debris was lodged against the cam (where the scratch was) and scratched the sheath. when you stopped lowering him, the cam engaged, thus 'grabbing the rope' with more pressure, perhaps pushing the debris into the rope, maybe causing it to cut through the core. man, that must have been one nasty piece of rock!
|
|
|
|
|
highminded
May 4, 2004, 1:39 AM
Post #11 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 19, 2004
Posts: 93
|
What Vegastradguy proposes sounds feasible. It actually takes quite a bit to cut through a climbing rope, however. You'll know that if you've ever tried to use a knife to lop off the dammaged end of a rope. It takes a sharp knife and a bit of sawing back and forth to get the knife through.
I'm used to California granite, which is usually just grainy and abbrasive, not knife sharp. Have never experienced ryolite. If there was a sharp enough piece of rock caught in the Gri-Gri and the device cammed up to hold a fall, I could see how that could press the rock into the rope hard enough to cut into it.
The lesson here is, clearly: check the rope channel of your Gri-Gri and make sure it's clean. Also try to knock stuff off the rope, before it enters the Gri-Gri, as you're drawing the rope through.
Tragic about your friend. You have my sympathies.
|
|
|
|
|
banzai
May 7, 2004, 4:49 PM
Post #12 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 37
|
In reply to: It actually takes quite a bit to cut through a climbing rope, however. You'll know that if you've ever tried to use a knife to lop off the dammaged end of a rope. It takes a sharp knife and a bit of sawing back and forth to get the knife through.
It's true that it's difficult to imagine how the rope could be cut completely in this top-roping situation. However, I don't think that we can compare this with cutting the end of a loose rope with a knife, because a rope under tension is probably much much easier to cut (not that I ever tried this). It's somewhat reasuring that they haven't been able to reproduce it.
F.
|
|
|
|
|
cfnubbler
May 7, 2004, 5:28 PM
Post #13 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2003
Posts: 628
|
In reply to: It actually takes quite a bit to cut through a climbing rope
Not under load it doen't. Try hanging a full haul bag from a tree with an old rope and cutting it. Spooky.
-Nubbler
|
|
|
|
|
thomaskeefer
May 7, 2004, 5:45 PM
Post #14 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 186
|
For what it is worth in response to the last statement about never cutting a rope under tension...
A while back I was watching a stunt plane show on a river. We were in two side by side sailboats that were tied together with fenders between us. There was one line up front and one in the back. The fwd line came loose and the boats began banging together and the fact that the rear line was still attached was making it worse. This rear line was under alot of tension (although it was a static, not dynamic line). My brother pulled out a knife that was not unusually sharp and BARELY touched the sheath of the rope with his knife and it parted immediatly..
Sucks to read this...
|
|
|
|
|
curt
May 7, 2004, 6:20 PM
Post #15 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: In reply to: It actually takes quite a bit to cut through a climbing rope Not under load it doen't. Try hanging a full haul bag from a tree with an old rope and cutting it. Spooky. -Nubbler
Ditto this comment. Ropes under tension cut VERY easily.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
May 7, 2004, 6:32 PM
Post #16 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
From the sar report
In reply to: Approximately three inches (8 cm) of sheath was removed from an 11 mm dynamic rope. When a 150 pound (68 kg) test load was suspended from it, the sheath pulled away exposing approximately 18 inches (46 cm) of core. The serrated blade of a Gerber multi-tool was placed against the rope perpendicular to the vertical orientation of the core fibers. The edge of the blade was pulled toward the tester until the rope parted. After pulling for about one foot (30 cm) of horizontal travel, the rope parted. The cut appeared to take place nearly instantly, there was no visible "tearing" of the core fibers.
appendix to the report
http://www.esssar.org/..._Report_Appendix.pdf
|
|
|
|
|
needmoregear
May 7, 2004, 6:37 PM
Post #17 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 45
|
here is the appendixes of the SAR report (same website)
http://www.esssar.org/..._Report_Appendix.pdf
this is a really horrible tradgedy. but don't give such a misleading and incorrect introdution to it.
In reply to: The Gri Gri that failed: Gri Gri's are an incredible device, safe, sound, and almost completely idiot-proof; however in the summer of 1999, I was first-hand witness to one that tragically failed up on the North Shore of Lake Superior. |
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
May 7, 2004, 6:44 PM
Post #18 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 4, 2002
Posts: 2824
|
This is unreal. It is as improbable as Amber's save...
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
May 7, 2004, 7:38 PM
Post #19 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
wow! -- that is one thorough report .. and piece of investigation ..
.. sorry about your loss ..
.. The topic through is misleading -- the grigri did not fail .. it was a freak accident, by some debris getting caught in the grigri and damaging the rope to the point where it failed.
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
sandstone
May 11, 2004, 2:51 AM
Post #20 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 21, 2004
Posts: 324
|
I can't find the words to properly convey condolences for your loss...
I can say thank you for starting this discussion, and bringing attention to the accident report.
I like to put up new trad climbs on sandstone, and many of the cracks have to be cleaned out before they'll take protection. I'll typically rappel down the route (using a GriGri) and dig out the dirt and loose rocks. I always tie back up knots below the GriGri, but I'd never considered that some of the cleaning debris could get in the GriGri and sever the rope.
When I clean a route from now on I'll be rappelling on one line with my GriGri, and using a second rope for my backup knots.
|
|
|
|
|
maf
May 26, 2004, 9:14 PM
Post #21 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 16, 2003
Posts: 10
|
Some comments:
*This incident didn't make it into ANAM because of the long delay in the release of any findings as to the cause of the fatality. See page 1, ANAM 2000.
*While I won't comment on the incident, the post-incident actions of a number of folks (myself included) proved once again that 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'.
*There are a number of things I'd quibble with in the accident investigation but nothing substantive. This was not equipment failure.
*The most important take-home message at this point: in case of any serious accident, (1) Get the right person in charge of the scene ASAP, (2) Take orders from that person like a good soldier (don't be a cowboy), and (3) preserve the accident scene. Rope it off, station guards, whatever. Don't touch anything and photograph everything. You can be sure that no local law enforcement individual will appreciate its importance (I'm not including park staff here).
Mike Farris
Rock Climbing: Minnesota and Wisconsin
|
|
|
|
|
rescueman
May 27, 2004, 1:36 AM
Post #22 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2004
Posts: 439
|
In reply to: The original post title is also incorrect and a poor choice of words. It implies that the Gri Gri had some sort of mechanical failure. This doesn't seem to me to be any more a failure of the Gri Gri than it would be if a rock had fallen on the rope and cut it.
I have to disagree with this statement. This outcome would not likely have occured with a sticht plate or tube type belay device. It is the design of the GriGri, a closed shell with internal cam and moving parts which cannot be inspected during use, that increases the number of potential failure modes.
Another quality of the GriGri and similar autolock devices is the "complacency tendency" that's created by the assumption that the device is "fail-proof" or "automatic" and requires less attention from the belayer.
I have an article coming out in the June/July issue of Advanced Rescue Technology called "Is Fail-Safe Really Safe" which addresses this problem in more detail.
The more we rely on technology and the less we rely on basic skill and simple attentiveness, the more likelihood of accident and failure.
- Robert
|
|
|
|
|
pneumoped
Jun 3, 2004, 10:20 PM
Post #23 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 2, 2004
Posts: 32
|
sandstone,
Another option for rapping and doing a hands free hang (for your crack cleaning) would be to use a standard ATC for your rappel device and then use a prusik around the rope above you and attached the tail end to your harness. Keep one hand on the brake rope and the other on the prusik to keep it sliding down. When you get to a spot you need to clean, just let the prusik tighten up.
Also works good when rapping a single line with a heavy pack. If you lose control of your brake hand, just let go of the prusik and it will stop you.
Cheers,
Chris
|
|
|
|
|
rescueman
Jun 4, 2004, 2:00 AM
Post #24 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2004
Posts: 439
|
In reply to: Another option for rapping and doing a hands free hang would be to use a standard ATC for your rappel device and then use a prusik around the rope above you ... If you lose control of your brake hand, just let go of the prusik and it will stop you.
Holy Moly Batman, this is a recipe for disaster. There have been a number of well-documented fatalities by highly experienced climbers and cavers using this discredited system.
The natural tendency in a panic is to grab the rope above you (you will do this well before your conscious mind kicks in) and if that hand is minding the prusik, down you go like a rock.
Also, once locked off with your full weight, a top prusik can be difficult to break free. A far better method, and the one becoming the standard today, is an autoblock below the rappel device.
Al Padgett and Bruce Smith's discussion of the Prusik Safety in "On Rope" (National Speleological Society, 1987) explains "It was learned through several bad accidents that if a problem occurs, instead of letting go, the natural reaction is to grab. Grabbing a Prusik allows it to slide down the rope, travelling faster every instant. If a person is actually able to come to his senses long enough to let go of the knot, the sling material may disintegrate, allowing the climber to descend even more rapidly than before. In actual usage, the Prusik safety has proven to be troublesome and dangerous".
From John Long, on page 155 of the second edition of "How To Rock Climb": "A sliding knot backup (commonly referred to as a Prusik backup) is rarely if ever used as a normal procedure. If you don't know how to rappel, get a belay. If you are doubtful that you can make a certain rappel, don't make that rappel. Only if you are doubtful and must rappel, and no belay is possible, should you consider the Prusik backup as an option....All told, the Prusik backup is a highly contested technique. The only thing for certain is that it can be highly problematic.
For a thorough discussion of this, go to: http://storrick.cnchost.com/...appelSafetyPost.html
or http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/RapBackup.htm
- Robert
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Jun 4, 2004, 3:44 AM
Post #25 of 118
(21075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
Rapell backups a recipe for disaster?
Bullsh!t.
I will have to talk with Padgett next time I see him and see if he still feels that way.
About the tendancy of a panicky falling rapeller to grab the prussik, I guess if you are going to panic in a fall then you should not be climbing anyway.
On Rope is a fine book though.
The AMGA guide I took a self rescue course from advocates the below the device backup, connected to a leg loop. This backup has been worth it's weight in gold to me.
As for the below the device backup always getting caught in the device (Another claim made in the On Rope discussion you refer to), I guess I am just unlucky, since I have used one on every rappel for over 2 years now and this has never happened to me. Maybe you just have to know how to rig it.
As for john long's comments, I guess I either don't know how to rappell, or I am rare. Not sure which. But rapping on thin rope will make you a convert to the rapell backup if anything will. As long as we are talking about natural reactions, when you get a little rope burn, your first reaction is to let go, and that stops the rappell cold if you have the below the device backup on.
Just for the record, Amber would not have had her near death experience if she had been using the below the device rapell backup.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
