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litedawg
Apr 17, 2002, 8:22 PM
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I am starting to aquire draws for lead climbing. I have been a top roper in the past and want to expand and grow. the couple draws taht I do have now are BD quick wires, but I am debating the virtues of a bent gate biner. Understand, I top rope 5.9, and have never actaully lead any routes, if this makes a differance.
What is the public opinion; bent or wire?
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mikedano
Apr 17, 2002, 8:37 PM
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Well you know, if I had it to do over again (buying a rack) I think I would go with wire gates. I have 12 quickdraws, a set of nuts, some hexs and 5 cams--and that just by itself is HEAVY. It's not terribly bad, but it's damn noticible. Now granted wire gate biners are not ultra light, but they do shave off some weight, and every little bit helps. Especially when you're hauling around 30 of the little bastards.
As for the ease of clipping bent vs. wire--I don't think it matters. You'll get used to whatever you get. So I say put in the extra $ and get some wires.
(Also, I would suggest making a few of your QDs out of longer runners and then just doubling them when you're sport climbing. It's always good to have a few longer ones, just in case.)
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killclimbz
Apr 17, 2002, 8:58 PM
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It's really a matter of preference. Wire gates have been shown to be stronger when cross loaded. Unfortunately the rope crossing over the wire may actually cut the rope. That would be bad. Wire gates tend to be a bit lighter than bent gates.
As far as clipping goes, I find that both types are just as easy to clip. The wire gate offers little resistance, while the bent gate helps you drop the rope in.
If you are going to be mostly learning on trad routes I would go with the wire gates for the weight savings. At some point if you continue trad climbing you are going to be carrying a fair amount of gear. Having the lightest rack possible makes a difference. If you are mostly going to be a sport climber than go with whatever you like.
I have both bent and wire gates. Either work fine for me.
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wigglestick
Apr 17, 2002, 9:13 PM
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I think wire gates are more versatile. They can go on either the pro end or the rope end. And they are pretty cheap too. If you are going to be working sport routes get bent gates. If you want all around useful biners get wire gates.
And am I stupid? what the hell is a Rodeo Clip? Did I not get a memo?
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gooch
Apr 17, 2002, 9:17 PM
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Wire
Black Diamond
Love em!
My two cents
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jt512
Apr 17, 2002, 9:53 PM
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Quote:
Wire gates have been shown to be stronger when cross loaded.
Unfortunately the rope crossing over the wire may actually cut the rope.
killclimbz, do you have any substantiation for either of those claims?
-Jay
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bradhill
Apr 17, 2002, 10:43 PM
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In addition to being light, wire gate 'biners have the added advantage that when slammed against the rock, the gate won't open under the interta, which (theoretically- I've never heard of it actually happening) could allow the rope to escape.
They're pricey, but I love the new DMM ball-lock wire gate biners. Not quite as light as your standard wire gate but they don't have a notch at the nose! I use these for the pro end of my draws and for racking gear and BD Quickwires for the rope end of draws.
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verticallaw
Apr 17, 2002, 10:50 PM
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I would like to find out about wire gates cutting the rope as well. I prefer wire gates for ease of clipping. But also litedawg I found that when I was learning that having wire gates on the QD's help me easily locate the top and bottom without having to look. This was great for multi pitch sport climbs as I always seem to re-rack with the rope biner on my gear loop this stoped the problem of using the wrong end by mistake
At work but not working
Mike
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killclimbz
Apr 17, 2002, 11:09 PM
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JT,
I don't have the info right at hand but Rock and Ice has covered this. When BD first offered (4-5 yrs ago?) the wire gate they (R&I) gave their analysis of some of the pros of wire gates. One of them being that gate flutter is virtually eliminated if the biner should be banging on the rock. I don't know how relevant this situation is. The other point was that the wire would bend but is not as likely to break if cross loaded. In a later issue they talked about the possibility of severe rope damage if you should happen to cross load the gate. There point was that the thin wire is much harder on the rope than the rest of the biner. I guess it has to do with the surface area that the rope is bent over.
I'll dig through my R&I's this week and see if I can find the issue. Not really sure which one it is, but I know I still have it. I have also read about the cross loading danger online, but I have no idea which website it was.
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treyr
Apr 17, 2002, 11:26 PM
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I dont care whatever is cheaper for me and I prefer bent if i had to choose.
Trob
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bradhill
Apr 17, 2002, 11:29 PM
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One thing I forgot:
Gate flutter- the gate opening due to inerta - is dangerous for more than just the possibility of the rope escaping. The gate will be open at the same instant the highest load is place on the biner, and a biner's strength along the long axis with the gate open is ususally significantly less than even in a cross or triaxially loaded position. Your biner could fail at as little as 7kn if the gate is open when it takes a load. In my book this is reason enough to never use solid gates for the rope end of a draw.
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jt512
Apr 18, 2002, 2:51 AM
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Quote:Gate flutter- the gate opening due to inerta - is dangerous for more than just the possibility of the rope escaping. The gate will be open at the same instant the highest load is place on the biner, and a biner's strength along the long axis with the gate open is ususally significantly less than even in a cross or triaxially loaded position. Your biner could fail at as little as 7kn if the gate is open when it takes a load. In my book this is reason enough to never use solid gates for the rope end of a draw.
Unfortunately, wire gates do not completely eliminate the gate opening due to inertia. I've acutally seen it happen up close and personal. I took a short lead fall sport climbing a couple years ago and came to rest eye level with the bottom biner on the draw that caught my fall. My eyes were inches away from the carabiner, and literally right in front of my eyes, I was able to see the wire gate pop open momentarily. The next day I went out and replaced my wire gates with Petzl Spirits, which have a 9.5 kN open gate strength rating. This is about the highest force a sport carabiner should ever feel. In comparison, most biners are rated only to 7 kN open-gate strength, a force that could easily be exceeded in a sport climbing fall onto the first or second bolt, before much rope is out.
-Jay
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jt512
Apr 18, 2002, 2:57 AM
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Quote:
When BD first offered (4-5 yrs ago?) the wire gate they (R&I) gave their analysis of some of the pros of wire gates. ... The other point was that the wire would bend but is not as likely to break if cross loaded. In a later issue they talked about the possibility of severe rope damage if you should happen to cross load the gate.
Since this article was written when wiregates were first introduced, it sounds to me as if they were speculating on both points. I've compared the cross-load strength of wire- and conventional-gate biners of several manufacturers that make both, and within manufacturers, these strength ratings are similar.
As to the rope being cut on the wire, I've never heard of this happening in practice.
-Jay
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woodse
Apr 18, 2002, 4:24 AM
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I've got some WC wire gates and I love em. The way I look at it, anything could happen, either a draw is going to hold or it isn't. The chances of it happening if you've done everything correctly are minimal. Go with the wire gates, they're lighter and just as easy if not easier to clip.
woodsE
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freakontr
Apr 18, 2002, 7:01 AM
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If you're indecisive between wire and bentgate, I would suggest bentwire biner (best of both world). CAMP makes them. My gym also has them. I have a set of draws with that and BD Positrons on the bolt end, and they're great.
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joerockclimbs
Apr 18, 2002, 12:23 PM
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I read the posts and did not see it mentioned but then again I am not the brightest bulb in the bunch sometimes.
Trango makes bent wire gates. They are directional and have a slot for quick draws to sit nicely in. Here is the link:
http://www.trango.com/showitem.cfm?catnum=19&itemnum=142
I use them and they seem to be nice.
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killclimbz
Apr 18, 2002, 1:02 PM
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JT,
I've never heard of a rope getting cut by the wire gate either. I would think (I have never tested it) that the impact of a fall on the wire gate itself would cause more damage to a rope. After all you don't see wire biners. As for the gate opening, the Rock and Ice article is one of many on the benefits of the wire gate.
Wire gate biners have been around for a long time in the fishing industry. The climbing community has just started to use them.
Gate flutter is reduced but not eliminated, I have also noticed this. Under most applications this is not an issue. As for open gate strength, I think the Petzl spirit is the strongest (and a nice biner), but how many of us have had a biner blow up because the gate was open when we fell on it? I have never seen this scenario either.
Another benefit of wire gates are that springs and internal parts are not used. You don't have many problems with crud and such getting into the working parts. No stuck gates and such.
If/when I find the articles I'll post it for all to read.
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bradhill
Apr 18, 2002, 6:41 PM
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I don't think a wire gate would really cut a rope. I've seen 'biners in local climbing shop displays where a wire gate was bent into a taco by crossloading but the rope didn't fail.
On the whole, gear related accidents are uncommon compared to objective hazard and user error, but within the category carabiner failure is one of the more common causes of injury and death and loading with an open gate is the major cause if carabiner failures that you would encounter on a draw. (there are other issues with big lockers on your harness)
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jt512
Apr 18, 2002, 7:48 PM
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I concur with what Brad wrote above.
Biners do fail, and the most common cause, according to Chris Harmstrom, BD's former quality assurance manager, is their being loaded with their gate open.
Due to the gate's momentum or interference with the rock, we probably fall onto open gate biners a lot more than we realize. As I said, I've actually seen a wire gate pop open under load right in front of me. I've also "taken" only to find that the draw, which looked to be well placed, was being held open by the rock. I know of a bolt on a particular climb where a fall from anywhere above the bolt will cause the carabiner to slam into the rock. A non-locking carabiner is not safe on this bolt regardless of which direction the gate is faced or how long the draw is. However, few climbers use a draw with a locking biner there.
Sport falls can easily generate forces in the range of 7 to 9 kN, where the open gate stength of carabiners is crucial.
-Jay
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joerockclimbs
Apr 18, 2002, 8:19 PM
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ROPE CUTTING: I have never heard of a wire gate cutting the rope but here is a nice test for all of you to try. Take a biner with one of those lovely hooks that the gate sits in. Take an piece of rope and place it between the gate and that lovely hook and and squeeze a little bit as if the gate was pressing on a rock. Yank the rope like in a fall. Amazing what the inside of a rope looks like.
Has anyone ever seen this happen before?
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verticallaw
Apr 19, 2002, 10:32 PM
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hey brad what do you mean about " there are other issues with big lockers on your harness"? I was taught that in doing multi sport that having big locking gates on your harness was a good thing. Was I miss informed ??
questioning my teacher
Mike
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dustinap
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Apr 19, 2002, 10:50 PM
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Joe, at first glance your idea looked good. After thinking about it however I came to this conclussion. You are pinching the rope with your test, where with a fall it'd have SLACK running over the gate until brought to tension. Upon being brought to tension it wouldn't slip very much. Only one side is running against it, which means when it would be brought to tension, the rope could move some. Your test shows the robe being squeezed between two sections of a carabiner, lightly to moderately weighted and pulled thru.
This sitution seems to be thought up to damage a rope, and is unlikely a sitution like this would happen in the field, thank God. I'm not saying your idea isn't good, but not realilistic. I think if you did your test with any other biner, you'd find rope damage also, have it be a Petzl Spear, BD Hotwire, or any biner on the market.
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dustinap
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Apr 19, 2002, 10:57 PM
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BTW, DMM wirelock is 28 KN closed gate major axis, 10 KN open gate major axis, and 9 KN crossloaded closd gate. 41 grams, 23.5 mm gate opening. These biners are a nice shape, not to heavy, have a cool gate with a unique locking system, very strong, and are expensive. 10KN open gate, and a minimized chance of gate fluttering sounds better to me then a normal chance of gate opening and 9.5 KN, although Petzl spirits are awesome biners, and my prefered for protection end of quickdraw, runner, sling or whatever you have.
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bradhill
Apr 19, 2002, 11:05 PM
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Having a big locker on your harness is a good thing, not to worry. You just shouldn't trust them absolutely in all situations.
Check the UIAA (www.uiaa.ch) journal PDF archive (Gear and It's Uses issue) for full information on locker failures. The basic issue is that when using a figure eight, the eight can get caught on the collar at the nose of the biner. When a load is placed on that eight the force can lever and break the nose of the biner through the locking sleeve. (locking sleeves weren't designed for this direction of force) This is basically only an issue with figure eights, but a several fatalities and injuries are attributable to this in the last couple years. So, basically, don't belay with an 8, and if you're going to rap with one, use a quicklink or have an opposed backup biner.
There is also some possiblity that rope friction can unlock a screw locker. This is more likely if you have a harness that requires you to use a biner to connect your waist and leg loops as this configuration can hold the biner at the wrong angle. So, basically, you should prefer a harness with a belay loop and attach your locker through that, or, if you have an old style harness, use one locker to close your harness and a separate big locker just through the waist loop for rope work.
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greyghost
Apr 20, 2002, 1:30 PM
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Does anyone in here use a wiregate for their bolt/pro and a bengate for their rope?
Don't stop the Scream
matt
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