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mattdog


May 11, 2004, 4:56 PM
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Hatred is a seed.
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The latest news on what's going on in Iraq finally brought me to post something about it, even though I traditionally stay away from such incendiary subjects.

You see, those Al Queda members weren't just killing an American on television. Their real actions were much more sinister. They planted a seed in the hearts of Americans everywhere.

I don't know these men. I don't know what caused that seed of hatred to find fertile ground in their hearts. But I do know that that seed has grown to fruition. It has consumed their very being, so that there is nothing left. Imagine the all-consuming hatred it takes to commit such an act.

Now, as always... the hatred searches for more fertile ground. There is nothing left in these men to draw on. Their souls are bankrupt and dry. With this video, the hatred has climbed out of their hearts and into our own. At this very moment, it tries to find fertile soil in your heart.

Don't be fooled into thinking that it can't. Hatred is a sinister evil that eats all that is good. Those of you that held nothing but love in your hearts for Nick Berg find that that stream of goodness doesn't flow quite as fast anymore. Hate has found its ground. That is these men's gift to you. There is nothing left in these men to destroy, so they've send their hate to you in an MPG encoded format.

I can't speak for everyone, but I will not let their hatred find root in my own soul. I will not sully the memory of these good men with the evil that these Al Queda members has tried to pass on. I will not allow my soul to be consumed in such a way. We are good men. We are better than this.

I only can hope our soldiers and leaders can prevent this evil from taking control of their hearts as well.


curt


May 11, 2004, 5:05 PM
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No problem. I will hate them for you. :D

Curt


pinktricam


May 11, 2004, 5:18 PM
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If hatred is a seed, then pacifism and appeasement are the water and nutrients that seed needs to grow.

Don't mistake justice for vengeance.


Partner tgreene


May 11, 2004, 6:01 PM
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If anything positive could ever come from this mans death, I pary that it is to provide the proof and actual evidence to the rest of the world (as well as the nay sayers here in the US), that Al Queda is fully organized and operating in Iraq, and creating a new terror in the very people that we have attempted to liberate from so many years of sufferage under Saddam.

Matt has hit the nail on the head, in that we must not allow ourselves to be filled with an equal hate, because that is why they are doing this.

Contrary to what may have been said on the video, revenge against the limited poor treatment of Iraqi POW's is not the motivation, because this is the same thing they do on a daily basis, to their own men and women. If a woman leaves her home unescorted by a male family member, she may be subject to death by stoning or beheading. Speak out against the ruling body, and you are forced to watch your wife and daughters being brutally raped to death, before your own throat is cut afterwards.

Don't let these most recent attrocities turn our own hearts into stone, because we then become our own enemy......................


hugepedro


May 11, 2004, 6:17 PM
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On the money, mattdog.

I believe the greatest challenge facing America this century is to avoid a global religious war, and to lead the world toward peace and religious tolerance. So far, we are failing. We are doing exactly what the extremists on the other side want us to do. We have to find ways to take power away from the extremists rather than hand it to them on a silver platter.


pinktricam


May 11, 2004, 6:24 PM
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Strikes me as a rather ironic comment coming from you, Pedro, seeing as how you seem to show little tolerance for Christianity yourself.


bluto


May 11, 2004, 7:01 PM
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On the money, mattdog.

I believe the greatest challenge facing America this century is to avoid a global religious war, and to lead the world toward peace and religious tolerance. So far, we are failing. We are doing exactly what the extremists on the other side want us to do. We have to find ways to take power away from the extremists rather than hand it to them on a silver platter.

As per your usual rhetoric, you place responsibility and assign blame to America, a nation which provides a great example, in allowing it's residents religious freedom, for the narrow minded and often times evil actions of religious extremists. In doing so you absolve those same extremists of any responsibility for their own actions, and project it back to the US. Rather than insist we are failing, perhaps you should explore the concept that is actually they who are failing, in their betrayal of anything resembling moral behavior, and their embracement of a twisted ideology. One cannot pretend that this is a rational thought process that can be disarmed through diplomacy and negotiation.


jpearl


May 11, 2004, 8:14 PM
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Nice post, mattdog. Brave step into what usually has the potential to be rather hostile territory.

Your point reminds me of a quote by Golda Meir, a former Prime Minister of Israel. To paraphrase, she quipped that peace can only be achieved when the Arabs learn to love thier children more than they hate the Israelis. It was a great observation because it appeased not to a political side of the issue, but rather a human one.

In truth, for the threats we face, we can wipe our enemies out in the push of a button. But it will be a hallow victory; eliminating an obvious threat but only by an extreme measure that is beyond what we have come to accept and expect of ourselves. The punishment we take is a testement to our humanity, the art is just how much you will take after exhausting all other options that you then strike to eliminate the threat once and for all.


curt


May 11, 2004, 8:21 PM
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On the money, mattdog.

I believe the greatest challenge facing America this century is to avoid a global religious war, and to lead the world toward peace and religious tolerance. So far, we are failing. We are doing exactly what the extremists on the other side want us to do. We have to find ways to take power away from the extremists rather than hand it to them on a silver platter.

Your post could have been paraphrased from any of Chamberlain's speeches from the mid 1930s regarding Germany. It is altruistic and filled with nice sentiment and all, but appeasement toward terrorists and killers is always wrong.

Curt


hugepedro


May 11, 2004, 10:46 PM
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Bluto & Curt,
Nowhere have I suggested that we appease terrorists or deal with them via diplomacy and negotiation. Nor have I placed blame on the U.S. for the actions of others. I do blame the Bush Administration for the counterproductive results of their flawed strategies in response to the terrorist threat. Blame for lack of progress in our cause is not the same as blame for the actions of terrorists. So Bluto, your logic doesn't fly. I can't question our strategy (which is obviously not working) because to do so absolves terrorists of their actions? Uh-uh. Just because we are not doing the smart thing does not mean that others have a green light to kill.

There is no example of the strategy we are currently employing working. Israel? That's a big no. And this is not WW2 - not even close. Warfare now is different. I think you guys know that. Winning the political/diplomacy war is more important than winning the shoot-em-up war. Give me an example of our strategy working.

I've said it a gazillion times, you guys ought to be tired of it: we must win the hearts and minds of moderate Muslims.

Prior to the Iraq war the largest Muslim population in the world, Indonesia, had a 62% favorable opinion of the U.S. Now it is less than 20%. We are losing. We have to change our strategy.

I would like to hear your feedback on my assertions:

1. That averting a global religious war is America's greatest challenge of this century.

2. That the only way we will have ultimate success against terrorism is to win the hearts and minds of moderately minded Muslims, because they are the only ones who can root out the extremists among them.

If you disagree with these statements, please tell me why.


hugepedro


May 11, 2004, 11:03 PM
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Strikes me as a rather ironic comment coming from you, Pedro, seeing as how you seem to show little tolerance for Christianity yourself.

Pinky,
That's a pretty stupid comment. Nothing to do with this topic.

Anything I've said about Christianity would be regarding intolerance on the part of Christians, and about subjection of others to Christian beliefs and practices against their will.

I have little tolerance for stupid people of all beliefs. I know plenty of intelligent Christians and I am quite "tolerant" of them.

There are stupid people of all religious beliefs and non-religious beliefs. The more zealous, the more stupid. It's just a coincidence that I live in a place where Christians make up the bulk of the 'believing" population, and therefore the largest sample from which to find stupid people happens to be Christians (as is demonstrated by your stupid comment above). I'm sure that if I lived in a Muslim population I would find plenty of stupidity there as well.


curt


May 12, 2004, 1:04 AM
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Moderate Muslim is an oxymoron and to the extent I am wrong moderate Muslims are irrelevant in any case. My prediction is that we are going to enter a period of "Jihad" or "Crusades" or whatever you want to call it. I am not necessarily for this, I am merely calling it as I see it.

Curt


Partner tradman


May 12, 2004, 2:22 AM
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Moderate Muslim is an oxymoron

I see the usual racists are out in force.

:roll:

In reply to:
averting a global religious war is America's greatest challenge of this century.

I'd extend that to say that it's the challenge of the west as a whole. However, with attitudes like the above being so prevalent in america, I wouldn't hold out a great deal of hope.


far_east_climber


May 12, 2004, 4:06 AM
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Don't hate them. Doesn't anybody realise right now there is probably someone in Iraq saying the exact same thing about 'us'. We are equally as sinister as them. We are just as vile. Dammit, we've all been brainwashed.


climbinganne


May 12, 2004, 4:26 AM
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Don't hate them. Doesn't anybody realise right now there is probably someone in Iraq saying the exact same thing about 'us'. We are equally as sinister as them. We are just as vile. Dammit, we've all been brainwashed.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


bumblie


May 12, 2004, 5:10 AM
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I have little tolerance for stupid people of all beliefs.

How about stupid liberals?

What's your opinion of Michael Moore?


Partner tgreene


May 12, 2004, 5:20 AM
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Your point reminds me of a quote by Golda Meir, a former Prime Minister of Israel. To paraphrase, she quipped that peace can only be achieved when the Arabs learn to love thier children more than they hate the Israelis. It was a great observation because it appeased not to a political side of the issue, but rather a human one.

Let me be the FIRST to express my extreme disdain for Israel, and to publicly state that they are every bit as much of a terrorist nation, as those we call our enemies

They fight fire with fire, and then call for public outcry for what the Palestiniens have done in Gaza. They seek revenge for a bus bomb, by bull dozing down homes and leveling entire neighborhoods. Which is worse, because it seems to be a toss up to me..? :?

Before our devowed support for Israel, the Muslim Extremists didn't consider the US as being the threat we are today. Once we supported one side of a 2000 year old Holy War, things got ugly!


There, I said it, I feel better now, flame me or fuk off, I don't care!!!


Partner tradman


May 12, 2004, 5:25 AM
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Flame flame flame, you're an idiot etc, flame flame.

Actually I agree Tim, I think your point about Israel's activities is well put and an interesting take on the motivational afctors leading to our present dilemma.

You're still a knuckle-dragging troglodyte though.

:wink:


bumblie


May 12, 2004, 5:32 AM
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From what I've read, the Arabs have almost always initiated conflict in the region. For certain arab factions, total elimination of Israel is the only acceptable solution. The fact that Israel has responded in kind to these aggressions makes them the bad guys. I don't get it.

It seems like the dire straights of the millions of Palestinian refugees is largely a result of hostile Palestinians. At what point does Palestine become responsible for the actions of its own people?


Partner tgreene


May 12, 2004, 5:34 AM
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You're still a knuckle-dragging troglodyte though.

:wink:

Coming from a drunken, Haggis eating Scot, that's a compliment! :mrgreen:


bumblie


May 12, 2004, 5:36 AM
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You're still a knuckle-dragging troglodyte though.

:wink:

How djmeat of you... :roll:


Partner tgreene


May 12, 2004, 5:42 AM
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From what I've read, the Arabs have almost always initiated conflict in the region. For certain arab factions, total elimination of Israel is the only acceptable solution. The fact that Israel has responded in kind to these aggressions makes them the bad guys. I don't get it.

It seems like the dire straights of the millions of Palestinian refugees is largely a result of hostile Palestinians. At what point does Palestine become responsible for the actions of its own people?

The Palestinians are pissed that their land was STOLEN away from them, in the name of God!

As I stated, Israel has been fighting fire-with-fire, and as such, is no better than the enemy they fight; because they are often fighting in the same manner and using the same terrorist tactics.

There's is a war that began with Abraham, long before Christ ever walked as man!


bumblie


May 12, 2004, 6:08 AM
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There's is a war that began with Abraham, long before Christ ever walked as man!

So the Muslim/Islam aspect is a recent development and merely a secondary issue?


bluto


May 12, 2004, 6:23 AM
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In reply to:
Your point reminds me of a quote by Golda Meir, a former Prime Minister of Israel. To paraphrase, she quipped that peace can only be achieved when the Arabs learn to love thier children more than they hate the Israelis. It was a great observation because it appeased not to a political side of the issue, but rather a human one.

Let me be the FIRST to express my extreme disdain for Israel, and to publicly state that they are every bit as much of a terrorist nation, as those we call our enemies

They fight fire with fire, and then call for public outcry for what the Palestiniens have done in Gaza. They seek revenge for a bus bomb, by bull dozing down homes and leveling entire neighborhoods. Which is worse, because it seems to be a toss up to me..? :?


Before our devowed support for Israel, the Muslim Extremists didn't consider the US as being the threat we are today. Once we supported one side of a 2000 year old Holy War, things got ugly!


There, I said it, I feel better now, flame me or fuk off, I don't care!!!

While I may not always agree with Israeli tactics, lets put the situation in perspective. Israel was created largely through the efforts of Britain and the newly created United Nations, so it is a gross over-simplication to state that they "stole the land" Let's also not forget that the adjacent Arab countries have launched three wars in 1948,1967, and 1973 in attempts to remove Israel from the map.

As to your assertion that muslim extremism directed towards the US is the result of support for Israel, perhaps on some level, but it also stems from many other issues. If you read about the Madrid train bombings, there were some references made by the perpatrators to events dating back hundreds of years to the time of the spanish defeat of the Moors. Persons who embrace this ideology will find justification for their actions regardless of our foreign policy decisions. Pretending that they are rational people, or that somehow we can get the target off our backs by merely ceasing support for Israel is foolish. We are talking about people who have no ethical problem slaughtering fellow muslims if it furthers their goals.


Partner tgreene


May 12, 2004, 6:28 AM
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I was simply saying that the Israeli tactics are often the same as the Terrorists. Why support one, yet fight the other..?

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