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verticallaw


Apr 25, 2002, 9:25 AM
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I have been climbing a while and I focus mostly on sport climbs. I find the enjoyable and dificult. I have followed my partner up gear routes but am no skilled enough to place gear. I am learning but as a single parent i have alot on the line. Recently I have been meeting alot of trad climbers who try to make it very clear that they are the best. What the hell is the deal with this???? We are all in this sport for some level of enjoyment, the thrill of being on the rock, the concentration, beutifull views. I could go on and on but why. My point is this.... If we are all in this sport for simmilar reasons than why the internall squabels? Are we not all just compeating against ourselves at some level?
I don't belive that because I choose to clip a biner into a hanger that I am less of a climber that is ludicrus. Is there any way that we can all just get along???? I have tried. We have bolted new routes in such a way that they can be climbed by both sport and trad. But with that said we have gotten flak for both sport climbers and trad climbers for this. So what a guy (or gal) to do? Any thoughts??

Sitting on the fence
Mike


arete2


Apr 25, 2002, 9:40 AM
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I totally agree with you, everyone wants to be the best, and that means that they want to feel superior to other climbers. I dont think this is right. Just keep climbing, and having fun.
Arete


dsafanda


Apr 25, 2002, 9:51 AM
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re. "We have bolted new routes in such a way that they can be climbed by both sport and trad."

What!!!!
If you're bolting existing trad lines you are going to get not a little but a lot of flak from climbers! If I understand what you're saying correctly...it sounds like you deserve what you get. If a climb can be protected with traditional gear you have no business drilling holes for bolts. End of story.

If your're simply making the point that trad and sport climbing are both equally valid pursuits then I totally agree. However, you can't try to make a specific route both a trad climb and a sport climb because you don't know how to place gear.


dogen


Apr 25, 2002, 10:04 AM
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every climbing subculture has its extremists, from trad climbers that would never clip a bolt out of principle, to sport climbers that don't even know the name of the route they're on because they're just concerned with the numbers. then you have the boulders that think that they're practising the purest form of climbing, blah, blah, blah, the list goes on and on. luckily this is not the norm. sure its ok to prefer a specific style of climbing, but its not ok express this elitist attitude to everyone that isn't dedicated to your style of choice.

i personally climb sport, trad, boulder, and aid, and the majority of people i climb with do the same. they enjoy each style for the different challenges it offers. i have only had a couple encounters with elitist climbers, and most of them seemed to be relatively inexperienced. this leads me to believe that a lot (not all) of these guys just want to belong to a group, you know fit in, be one of the guys, blah, blah, blah.

no worries mike. if you enjoy your climbing style of choice climb on!!


killclimbz


Apr 25, 2002, 10:08 AM
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If it has been established as a trad climb then it should stay that way. This is especially true if it is an area that is not considered a sport area. If the first ascentionist wishes to bolt the route then it is okay for that person to do it. This comes with the caveat that it is acceptable to bolt at that area.
Same thing goes for sport areas. If you put a route up it should be bolted. I don't really care if the crack is protectable or not. Places like Sport Park in Boulder have seen issues over this. Trad climbers didn't even consider climbing there until the sport routes went up. You always have the option of not clipping the bolts if you want to use the crack. Everyone should follow the ethics of the area. Chipping is never acceptable.


dogen


Apr 25, 2002, 10:10 AM
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oh one more thing......bolting trad lines goes against the ethics of almost every crag in north america. if this is the root of the sh!t you're catching from these trad climbers then you're getting slammed for a little more than mere elitist thinking. always respect the local ethics


sezumpf


Apr 25, 2002, 11:17 AM
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I agree with dsafanda. No one should ever bolt an existing TRAD route. You should respect the people who established the route. If they decide to go up and remove the bolts that were placed on the TRAD route then I would be behind them 100%.


verticallaw


Apr 25, 2002, 11:32 AM
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The route that I was reffering to was NOT established untill we went and established it. I do not conform to any one style of climbing and neither does my partner. When we found the crag we decided to experiment with bolting the route so it could be used both ways (the entire crag consists of this one route). I personally would not bolt a established route. If someone has taken the time to find and establish a climb than that route is their's to do with as they choose.

[ This Message was edited by: verticallaw on 2002-04-25 11:34 ]


Partner missedyno


Apr 25, 2002, 11:36 AM
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eeek! no bolting of trad lines!

that's like, i dunno, like paving lawns because you want to be able to rollerblade everywhere or something.

if it's set up as a trad line, don't bolt it!
how would it be if the trad climbers went chopping bolts on existing sport routes? not good.

there's enough rock in this world to go around...


overlord


Apr 25, 2002, 11:37 AM
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I believe that verticallaw wanted ro say they were bolting NEW routes, not existing trad ones. That would be dumb as s**t. But if they were NEW, he should be praised for trying to make peace between the climbers.

Anyway climb the way you like, as long a you do not spoil other climers pleasures.

CLIMB ON


cedk


Apr 25, 2002, 11:41 AM
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How do you know the line hadn't been done clean before?


verticallaw


Apr 25, 2002, 1:09 PM
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I know that the line had never been done due to where the crag is situated. We found it doing a flight over the cost. We plotted it on GPS and when we where in town we spoke to all the appropriate people ie:guides, guide book authers, access club, etc. to ensure that this crag had not been accomplished before. As well it took us a full day drive and a 4 day hike to reach the base. If any one was there before they left no trace (or the cougars ate them. And just to clairify I want to find out from all RC. users what Ideas everyone has to "bridge the gap" beetween trad and sport. Hence the "Can't we all just get along" In my area there is a building distain between the two sub-sports and with the access issues that we are faceing we will all need to work together to keep some beautifull crags. My bit about the crag we bolted was a example of one way the we can all be happy.

Mike


Partner rrrADAM


Apr 25, 2002, 1:14 PM
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It's all climbing... We need to do it with a "leave no trace" ethic, that has the least impact on the rock as possible.


rrrADAM


addiroids


Apr 25, 2002, 1:53 PM
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Quote:
"bridge the gap" beetween trad and sport. Hence the "Can't we all just get along" In my area there is a building distain between the two sub-sports and with the access issues that we are faceing we will all need to work together to keep some beautifull crags. My bit about the crag we bolted was a example of one way the we can all be happy.


The whole goal of being in the outdoors and currently the goal of ALL climbing is to climb with the least amount of impact. TRAD gear is what should be used FIRST!!!!! Then and only then if no suitable placement is to be found to keep the route "reasonably protected", should a bolt be placed.

By definition, if you bolted a line that "can be climbed by both sport and trad" then you bolted a trad line. I don't care if you got there first or not. Climb to preserve the rock. Put the damn drill away and pull your fvcking balls out of your momma's purse and show some boldness!!

Besides, it doesn't take that many brains to learn how to lead trad. Damn, look at all the burned out folks who lived in Camp 4 and did more drugs than Ozzy Osbourn and they lead with trad gear. You graduated from LAW school!!! Tell me you don't have the mental capacity to learn to place a damn nut in a constriction in a crack and runner it.

I hate to do it, but if this sounds like a personal attack, it is. You need to get your ethics straight. Everyone and the rock get hurt by people like you who place bolts in the manner you described. I am not trying to sound like a trad elitist but this is just how it goes. I don't have a vote in the matter and neither do you.

Damn that is weak!

TRADitionally yours,

Cali Dirtbag


[ This Message was edited by: addiroids on 2002-04-25 14:12 ]


passthepitonspete


Apr 25, 2002, 2:02 PM
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Dang, Adds, nice rant! I agree with every word.

Placing bolts where a route can be protected by natural means is not merely vandalism and incompetence, but could well be indicative of cowardice and cheating.

If you cannot climb a route without bolting, then you should either leave it to someone better than you, or else you should grow a longer neck.


wigglestick


Apr 25, 2002, 2:10 PM
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I am confused. You went through all the effort of flying a plane over an area. Locating the GPS coordinates. Did tons of research on the area. Drove for a full day. Hiked for 4 days. And then bolted a route which can be climbed trad? It sounds to me like you wasted your time, money, and energy drilling all those holes. If anybody has the gumption to go up there and repeat this route they won't just be packing quickdraws. No "sport climber" will ever go there. You want to know why there are internal squabbles between sport climbers and trad climbers. You just destroyed a good chunk of the adventure for that route.

It sounds like you are pretty proud of this route. And you probably should be. It sounds like you put alot of effort into it and deserve to feel good about the route. But ask yourself if you would feel the same way about this route if there was a 4-lane highway going within 100 feet of the base and a starbucks around the corner. Probably not huh? The struggle and the adventure to do this climb were part of the fun right? The struggle and adventure would be even greater if the bolts weren't there. Thats my 2 cents.


killclimbz


Apr 25, 2002, 2:15 PM
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The trad versus sport thing is fine. If I am bolting a sport route I am not going to skip a bolt placement just because there happens to be a good spot for a nut, while the rest of the climb has no gear. When I go sport climbing I am expecting to clip bolts, not having to mix it up because some lame'o has some issue with it. Types of rock play into also. Some rock types will not hold gear worth a dam. The only thing that will reliably hold are bolts. Then again I doubt these areas are in contention with the sport vs trad thing anyway. On the flip side I'm not going to go to an established trad area and place bolts on a climb because that's how I want to climb it. I'll either do it trad or move on.
Verticallaw, what are the ethics in the area, or the nearest crag to where you bolted? Is the rock you bolted on most likely to be developed as a trad area or a sport one? If you are anwering trad to either of these questions you probably shouldn't of bolted that line. Live and learn. I also know that anyone who bangs pins and complains about bolting is pretty much a hypocrite themselves.


hardcoredana


Apr 25, 2002, 2:20 PM
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I really hate all this talk about "Can't we all just get along?" Both in the real world and in the climbing world.

I really truly believe that disagreement and dissention should be encouraged. We all have the right to believe in what we believe. And usually, if you believe one thing, chances are that someone out there believes just the opposite.

I wouldn't really want to live in a world where everyone gets along, because that would mean we were all brainwashed to believe the same thing.

Now, I don't believe that violence should arise out of a disagreement. I also believe that even when disagreement exists, we should have open, honest communication about that disagreement. If we keep the lines of communcation open, then the possibility of education, change, and compromise increases exponentially. But I believe that even when we keep the lines of communication open, we still have the right to say, "I believe that my ethics are right and your ethics are wrong."

At the same time, we don't have the right to get personal with the argument. Most of the time,when a disagreement goes bad, it happens because the argument got personal.

Gawd, could you imagine how boring the world would be if we all just got along?


darkside


Apr 25, 2002, 2:22 PM
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Long ago in my not so dark past I climbed on the lighter side. I had only rope and draws and clipped only bolts. I looked up at routes with no bolts and dreamed of doing them.
I had a choice:
*walk away.
*climb them on TR.
*follow someone else.
*learn to place gear.

The choice here people is not a hard one. Your choice may not be the same as mine but the ethics should be. I still clip bolts from time to time. I chose all of the above. Come to the darkside and experience it's power. The great secret is no secret, if you can place gear you can climb almost anywhere.
I sometimes climb with people who almost only clip bolts and we get along just fine.
As rrradam says, minimum impact is important and a bolt near a gear placement is not minimum impact. Bolts are GREAT(really, they are awesome) but there is a time and place for them. I seriously hope nobody mistakes this for an elitist attitude, it is just a stronger ethic than retro-bolters and wannabe's have.
I mean how can I be mistaken for elitist?? I don't climb hard routes, I'm happy to clip bolts from time to time, the hardest route I've done with gear was a 5.10 mixed pro, and I freely admit to having backed off a 5.5, but I have NEVER....NEVER looked up at a climb and considered bolts neccessary when it can be protected with "clean pro".
We can get along if we all aspire to higher ethics.
Thank you, rant over.


crackaddict


Apr 25, 2002, 2:25 PM
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Whew! You just poured some gasoline on a fire here!

Adds and Pete are right!

Placing bolts on a climb that could be protected with gear is just bad form!

I climb everything trad, sport, boulder, aid, and I belive that climbers are climbers.

But if you go spraying about some route that you bolted when you could of done it with gear. And then ask, why trad climbers can't get along with sport climbers?
Expect to get schooled!!!
This is the exact reason why trad climbers have a problem with you!
You said this is in a remote area and checked with people to see if it was ok. That was ok. But this kind of mentality of bolting cracks is just over bolting. In return takes away from nature. And if you don't think it does. Just look at an area that has been shut down to climbing because someone did'nt like the sight of those shiney bolts in the rock!
I love to trad climb because it is a cut above the rest. It takes a lot more skill and mind control to do. I am all about safety. But don't like it when someone could of protected a route with gear and decided to bolt it to suit his skill level!

Rockitup!!


[ This Message was edited by: crackaddict on 2002-04-25 16:09 ]


cracksniffer


Apr 25, 2002, 3:02 PM
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The whole idea of a "trad area" and a "sport area" is crap really. There are gear routes at Smith Rock and Owens, and sport routes in Tuolomne and the Valley. The rock should dictate, not the area. If gear can't go in, then how often a bolt goes in is purely up to the first ascentionist. Of course, anyone who says there aren't exceptions to these "rules" surely hasn't clipped the bolts next to pockets or thin horizontals on bolted sport routes where a nice sketchy tricam, tcu, or jammed knot might suffice, right?


crap


Apr 25, 2002, 3:13 PM
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verticallaw

Dude, you are catching a lot of flack on this one. I believe the bolting part of your message has been hashed over enough for comment on, but the "getting along" part is still ripe for me.

I've put out the vibe at times that trad is better than sport climbering. Its true though. Trad offers a lot more than sport. But, I hate the attitude that comes along with putting out that vibe. Sorry if I belittled any sport climbers out there, I'll keep it to my self next time by not recognizeing your existance. You can carry on with whatever you people do now.


bradhill


Apr 25, 2002, 4:40 PM
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I'll have to add my vote against bolting routes that can be protected trad. This is not out of any feeling that one is a more valid type of climbing than another or one type of climber more skilled, but out of the first principle of enjoying the outdoors:


Leave no trace.


Permanently altering an unspoilt place shouldn't be done lightly. You probably enjoyed not seeing any evidence of prior visitors at this remote crag. Why deny that wonder and sense of adventure to those who follow?


Only bolt where no trad climber has gone before and it is necessary for safety. Your own lack of skill with trad gear is a reason to learn, not to declare a climb unsafe with clean pro.


verticallaw


Apr 26, 2002, 10:53 AM
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O.K. now the gloves have come off I agree with many of the above statments. But I also see that many of you (Addiroids in particular) HAVE COMPLEATLY MISSED THE POINTYes This route has been bolted but as the first assentionist my partner and I have made that choice. I will make my points in responce to all of your comments:
1)Quote "Addiroids"TRAD gear is what should be used FIRST!!!!!

We did thats how we FA'd the route dumba**

2)Quote "Addiroids"Then and only then if no suitable placement is to be found to keep the route "reasonably protected", should a bolt be placed.

Bright comment although none of you have bothered to ask how much of the route can be protected with gear now with that said you can protect aprox. 25-30% of the rout with gear.

3)Quote "Addiroids"Put the damn drill away and pull your fvcking balls out of your momma's purse and show some boldness!!

Ahh addiroids you have no idea how big my balls are or where I'm placing them. People like you who attack personally when debating a global issue add fuel to a well burning fire. it also sounds as though you are so uncomfortable with your own boldness and manhood that you feel a need to show others "how good you are" bravo you need counselling.

3)Quote "Addiroids"Besides, it doesn't take that many brains to learn how to lead trad.

I belive that you have proven that already


4)Quote "Addiroids"You graduated from LAW school!!!

yet another major assumption I am not a lawyer nor have I claimed to be. I have stated that I work in the legal community but no more

5)Quote "Addiroids" You need to get your ethics straight

I have never stated what my ethics are and therefore you have assumed yet again

6)Quote "Addiroids" I don't have a vote in the matter and neither do you.

Great point. although for someone with no vote you sure talk alot!!!

7)Quote "passthepitonspete"If you cannot climb a route without bolting, then you should either leave it to someone better than you, or else you should grow a longer neck.

I never said that I couldn't climb the route WE FIRST ASENTED IT DIDN"T WE??

There are aprox 12 route at this location aprox 75% of them can be climbed trad. We bolted this one in a attempt to show trad climbers and sport climbers that we can all use the same area we left the other routes clean (and hidden). This was done out of kindness and a hope that we could establish a crag where WE ALL FEEL WELCOME!!! I see now that this is not possible. The only people with legal access to the land that this crag is on is myself and my partners. I started to make this location semi public as a test to see if the area could be devolped with both sub sports in mind. I belive that wigglestick said it best when he said that I have wasted my time. Apperantly I have as there are climbers who are so stuck in their ways that compromise is impossible. I have not brought this route down to my level as I have climbed it before and after and it is so simmilar in dificulty that we are splitting hairs. I see now that even the "Eletist trad climbers" will use a bolt even if it is unnesasary. If you truly climb a route with trad than STAY OFF MY F**KING BOLT!!!!!! If you don't like it too bad, go find and establich your own area and do with it as you please
Doing as I dam well please
Mike

[ This Message was edited by: verticallaw on 2002-04-26 10:57 ]


cedk


Apr 26, 2002, 11:22 AM
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V-law I guess I need to see this route. First it sounded like you put bolts right next to the crack. Now you're just describing a mixed route. Routes where the crack runs out and it moves to face climbing get bolts all the time and I don't think it's all that controversial. You shouldn't be attacked for that.

If you put a bolt right next to perfect gear placements though, you messed up and I wouldn't be suprised to find that the bolts have already been chopped. You mentioned that if the line had been done before the FA'ist left no trace. Well, that's the beauty of being able to cleanly protect a route isn't it?

I love both sport trad and bouldering and I want to learn aid and ice. Yes we can get along or else I'd be fighting with myself all the time.

[ This Message was edited by: cedk on 2002-04-26 13:08 ]

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